# Hockey star tells critical fans to kiss his ass **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 28, 2005, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138 "2005-06-28T02:40:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138/21 "2005-06-28T17:53:05Z")
> [@adam yax](#): > > What is the average salary in the NFL? In the NHL it was over $1 million. Things are currently way out of whack in the NHL. Martin Lapointe signed that $20 million 5 year deal with the Bruins, and he has only had one year with more than 20 goals. Blame the Rangers. > [@CapnPitt](#): > > What about my “reinflation” comment? Do you think the rollback without the cap was actually meaningful? If you could control the Rangers, yes. > [@CapnPitt](#): > > Then why sign the contract? Why not choose another line of work? If you don’t want to risk the injury and bodily harm that results from being a pro athlete, don’t do it. But it’s a classic risk/reward: because the pay and benefits beats almost everything else out there for the risk taken. But, see, the flipside of this is, again, the hated Rangers. Nobody puts a gun to Joe Fifteengoals’s head and says, “You take this three million dollars.” The problem is, if 30 teams decide on a path of fiscal equity, the other two will start winning (or even be perceived as successful) with a deeper team, and that will blow the model for everyone else who figures that, even if they don’t win the Cup, a few more bucks will mean playoff revenue and merchandising. The owners dug their own hole and then climbed out on the backs of the players. The owners’ profit/loss model classified merchandising, parking, and concession revenues as “non-hockey income.” I’m sorry, but I don’t go to an empty arena and pay money to park just to eat a three-dollar hotdog and wash it down with six-dollar beer. And my LEAST favorite color is red, but I own a lot of red hockey jerseys and banners and such- and the Devils want to say that this has nothing to do with them? The owners made their own mess. Then they lied about how deep they were in the hole, then they built their ladder out of the spines of the players. Oh, and let’s not forget that health benefits will account for about 2 million of each team’s cap, leaving LESS money for salaries. The problem isn’t greedy players. The problem is teams thinking that having a productive third-line center, or keeping that same thrid-liner from another team, is worth overpaying for. I defy any greedy-player theories to explain Greg Freaking DeVries. I defy you. ---
**Author:** ![CapnPitt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/edb3f5/32.png) [@CapnPitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CapnPitt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138/22 "2005-06-28T18:14:30Z")
> [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > If you could control the Rangers, yes. But you can’t control the Rangers and other idiot owners without a cap. I just don’t think it’s possible. > [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > The problem is, if 30 teams decide on a path of fiscal equity, the other two will start winning (or even be perceived as successful) with a deeper team, and that will blow the model for everyone else who figures that, even if they don’t win the Cup, a few more bucks will mean playoff revenue and merchandising. This you don’t have to tell me. I root for a team that’s followed strict budgets for a few years now (after several years of crazy spending). However, Minnesota Wild’s aside, largely the spending teams do indeed get more wins. The dollar value of those wins can be staggering though. > [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > The owners dug their own hole and then climbed out on the backs of the players. I agree with you to a point. Was the current poor economic situation brought on by the owners? Yep, I’m with you all the way there. However, you’ve already stated that Joe Fifteengoals is overpaid. Therefore, by rolling back his salary and instituting the cap, they’re bringing this back to a reasonable payment level. Yep, if I were Joe Fifteengoals I’d fight like hell to keep that salary, but he’s overvalued. You’ve said as much. So climbing out on the backs of the players isn’t exactly the right phrasing. Needing the players cooperation to get out of it for the betterment of everyone is perhaps a better way to put it. A harsher anti-player person (which I hope you gathered that I’m not) could say that the players should have enjoyed those years of overpayment (please note that this isn’t my feeling, but I feel it’s the echo of your “backs of the players” statement). > [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > The owners’ profit/loss model classified merchandising, parking, and concession revenues as “non-hockey income.” I’m sorry, but I don’t go to an empty arena and pay money to park just to eat a three-dollar hotdog and wash it down with six-dollar beer. And my LEAST favorite color is red, but I own a lot of red hockey jerseys and banners and such- and the Devils want to say that this has nothing to do with them? Completely agreed. This is total crap. > [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > The problem is teams thinking that having a productive third-line center, or keeping that same thrid-liner from another team, is worth overpaying for. Right again. > [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > I defy any greedy-player theories to explain Greg Freaking DeVries. I defy you. I defy you to defend Jaromir Jagr. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138/23 "2005-06-28T19:12:10Z")
> [@CapnPitt](#): > > I defy you to defend Jaromir Jagr. You’re making my point for me. The Capitals offered him sixteen jillion dollars a year, plus someone to carry his bags, plus someone to whine FOR him when he was too tired to whine for himself, plus a revolving door of interns to fellate him. Nobody FORCED him to take it. Then they wanted to trade him, and the only team that could take him was the Rangers. Whose fault is this? The Capitals’ for signing him, and the Rangers’ for enabling the Caps by not sticking Washington with its white elephant. (for the record, **Capn,** I don’t think you’re anti-player) Now, I know that player/owner cooperation is necessary in order to fix the NHL’s financial troubles. However, I do not believe that the troubles are as bad as the owners are telling me they are, and I admit to bias on behalf of the players. No one has sold a major sports franchise for a loss yet. And when a consortium of investors offered to buy the NHL for the _exact_ amount at which it valued ITSELF, the vast majority of the owners refused to even consider an offer that **matched the assesment they themselves were using to show that being in the hockey business was a bad idea.** These two points and the absurdity of the owners’ evaluation serves to validate my already existent bias. Are the players overvalued? Maybe. But, Mister Owner, you can’t tell me that there isn’t enough money in your left hand to pay your employees while your right hand is shoveling stacks of hundreds into a bag that says “NOT FROM HOCKEY, NO SIRREE!!!” ---
**Author:** ![vl\_mungo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc8723/32.png) [@vl\_mungo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vl_mungo)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138/24 "2005-06-28T19:16:01Z")
I opened this thread just knowing it would either be about Roenick or maybe Brett Hull. You can always count on those guys. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![CapnPitt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/edb3f5/32.png) [@CapnPitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CapnPitt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138/25 "2005-06-28T20:05:33Z")
**Happy Scrappy** I don’t think we’re far apart on this issue. See how well our negotiations worked? 🙂 I agree that the owners are money-hiding greedy jerks who are idiots with their payroll. Bad for hockey. I think the players being vehemently anti-salary cap was foolish and jerkish. Bad for hockey. Though it’s got flaws, I don’t see any other way for the league and the sport to flourish other than with a salary cap. However, if ticket prices don’t drop after all these changes, dear NHL, you’re going to have one seriously pissed off **Capn** on your hands. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138/26 "2005-06-28T20:17:34Z")
> [@CapnPitt](#): > > However, if ticket prices don’t drop after all these changes, dear NHL, you’re going to have one seriously pissed off **Capn** on your hands. Ticket prices won’t drop because ticket prices have nothing to do with players’ salaries. Prices are set by what the market will bear. Salaries are set by the revenue available. See the NFL. Now, granted, they may drop in the short term because they need to get people back in the stands, but it won’t last. ---
**Author:** ![CapnPitt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/edb3f5/32.png) [@CapnPitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CapnPitt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138/27 "2005-06-28T20:22:16Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > Ticket prices won’t drop because ticket prices have nothing to do with players’ salaries. Prices are set by what the market will bear. Salaries are set by the revenue available. See the NFL. > > Now, granted, they may drop in the short term because they need to get people back in the stands, but it won’t last. You’re right, but I want some sort of acknowledgement and that’s the only thing that will do even if only for a short while. But then again, I live most of my life pissed off, so it’d be nothing new. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138/28 "2005-06-28T20:25:05Z")
> [@](#): > > and a team salary structure that is going to lead to massive, NFL-style cuttings and cut-rate re-signings once the new CBA goes into effect. The details of the deal haven’t been released yet, but the owners have publically said that they are not pursuing non-guaranteed contracts in the new deal. AFAIK, the provision for buyouts in the new deal will be the same as in the old CBA: 66% of the total value of the (guaranteed portion of the) contract, and the player immedately becomes a free agent. > [@](#): > > And when a consortium of investors offered to buy the NHL for the exact amount at which it valued ITSELF, the vast majority of the owners refused to even consider an offer that matched the assesment they themselves were using to show that being in the hockey business was a bad idea. Because they hope that, under a cap system, the values of their franchises will grow. Besides, there are some teams that will do very well under any system(like Toronto and Detroit). Why would the owners of those teams want to sell? > [@](#): > > The owners dug their own hole and then climbed out on the backs of the players. How else were they going to do it? When your income is lower than your expenditures, you have to increase revenue or decrease expenses. Let’s face it, for most teams they have no ways of increasing income(and, with the expiry of the television deals, they’re probably facing less income). That leaves us with reducing expenditures, and player salaries are the major expense NHL teams face. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138/29 "2005-06-28T20:34:57Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > This wasn’t a guy going all TO with a me-against-the-world attitude. This is a guy who just got his guts beat in at the negotiation table, and then the media is villianizing the players for this strike. What, and they aren’t villianizing Gary Bettman and the owners? I don’t know what the media has been like where you are, but here Bettman is about as popular and well-regarded a figure as Ted Bundy. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138/30 "2005-06-28T20:37:58Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > What, and they aren’t villianizing Gary Bettman and the owners? I don’t know what the media has been like where you are, but here Bettman is about as popular and well-regarded a figure as Ted Bundy. Some of the hockey columnists have nothing nice to say about Bettman, but most of the press has been fairly sympathetic to the owners. They apparently buy that a lot of these franchises are losing money. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138/31 "2005-06-28T21:38:58Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > Some of the hockey columnists have nothing nice to say about Bettman, but most of the press has been fairly sympathetic to the owners. > > They apparently buy that a lot of these franchises are losing money. In some cases, that’s absolutely true. But, if it is, it’s largely because the owners and the league in general have mismanaged the fucking thing into the ground. The ridiculous levels of expansion, into markets where hockey never had and never will have a solid fan base, has hurt the league as a whole. Dwindling audiences, driven away by the constant holding and the unwillingness of the powers-that-be to insist on free-flowing hockey, also hasn’t helped. And this has been exacerbated by players who take advantage of poor enforcement to stifle the flow of the game. Players, owners, and management all need to stop pretending that hockey can be as big as the “big three” team sports in North America. They will never get the crowds in the warm states, and they will never get the sort of massive TV deals that help to keep baseball and football and basketball alive. Instead of diluting their product by trying to appeal to people for whom hockey will never be more than a passsing interest, they should focus on the real fans and try to rebuild a strong, viable competition that appeals to people who love the game. Sure, going down this road means that future hockey stars will never make the sort of money that A-Rod or Shaq bring in, but they will do pretty damn well, and they will be part of a league that people actually want to watch, and that has some long-term viability. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138/32 "2005-06-28T21:56:32Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > absolutely every last human being on the planet, even people from central Africa where they speak that clicky language and have never seen ice before This made me laugh. I love Olympic hockey. I don’t enjoy NHL hockey. It’s like they’re two different games. If the current troubles mean the NHL dies and a new league rises, one based more on the international style of play, that’s perfectly fine with me. Or not. Either way, I don’t bemoan the loss of the NHL at all. I’ll just keep watching “my” style of hockey every four years, same as before. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138/33 "2005-06-28T22:10:32Z")
I was a season ticket holder and when they come back I doubt I will go to a single game. ---
**Author:** ![FlightlessBird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/cdc98d/32.png) [@FlightlessBird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlightlessBird)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138/34 "2005-06-28T23:07:49Z")
I’m extremely torn between loving hockey and feeling a pain in my backside. When the league comes back, I don’t think my principles will be able to keep me away from the game. Maybe I’ll watch the games from home, with the covers pulled over my head. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2005, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138/35 "2005-06-28T23:40:24Z")
Roenicks a loud mouthed moron. Even Brett Hull has some idea of when to keep his mouth shut. Why in the hell did he think that insulting the fans that are already alienated from the sport by the lockout was a good idea? I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised though. Not that this will change my opinion of the sport. Soon as it’s back, I’m right there. I’m such a pathetic addict. ---
**Author:** ![Linus\_Van\_Pelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@Linus\_Van\_Pelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linus_Van_Pelt)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138/36 "2005-06-29T08:43:39Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > …Perhaps a real hockey league could then replace it, one without teams in Fort Lauderdale and Phoenix… I’ve seen this attitude before, but never understood it. Why all the contempt for teams that play in warm weather locations? ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138/37 "2005-06-29T14:05:43Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > What, and they aren’t villianizing Gary Bettman and the owners? I don’t know what the media has been like where you are, but here Bettman is about as popular and well-regarded a figure as Ted Bundy. I was refering to this interview in particular. No owners were on that dais answering questions. Generally though, I tend to agree with **Neurotik** in that on the whole the owners are perceived better than the players right now. Both are a bunch of idiots, but the players moreso as potrayed by the media here. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138/38 "2005-06-29T14:25:05Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > Huh? On what planet? It’s affordable for the average family of four to go to a baseball game. It’s completely inconceivable for the average family of four to go to a football game. If they can even get tickets. Who’s games are you going to? Cubs tickets are $42 apeice to sit in the bleachers. The cheapest nosebleeds and obstructed view seats available anywhere in the ballpark during the summer months are $25. Still cheaper than Bears tickets, which go for $80 and up, but thats not the point I was making. The salary structure in the NFL keeps prices from spiralling out of control and creates an insane amount of parity. Thats why it’s better for the fans. Season ticket prices for the NFL are much more affordable than for MLB, which in many ways are the fans that the league do and should cater to. > [@](#): > > That makes no sense. MLB doesn’t have any pay-per-view for local games. Just for out of market games, just like the NFL. And NFL tickets are more expensive than ever, the only difference a larger chunk of the money goes to the owners instead of the players. And why does this not make sense? The NFL playes almost exactly 1/10th of the games as MLB. Their rosters are close to twice the size. The stadiums are about twice as large. If they had a MLB salary structure tickets would cost close to 10 times as much as MLB tickets. The Cubs will draw over 3 million fans this year, the Bears will max out at about 500,000. In Chicago the NFL tickets would end up being somewhere in the ballpark of $480 a pop. The math isn’t ideal with each sport having it’s own varied revenue streams and cost structure, but generally speaking if the NFL had no cap and garaunteed contracts they’d have to recover the cost via increased ticket revenue and TV revenue. The pay-per-view comment was not meant to be taken literally, but I don’t think there’s much more money that can be taken from tne networks. those added salary costs would have to come from somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138/39 "2005-06-29T14:28:26Z")
**My Two Bits.** Out of all the pro sports in the US, Hockey gets no respect. Skating forward, backwards on ice, stick handling skills, hard hitting and swearing in four languages. It is very tough aerobically and you have to be fit. And occassionally, there is a good fight YAY! by real men who can beat the snot out of someone who has it coming. YAY! and it’s Legal in the Game. YAY! Hockey does not seem to produce the thugs that basketball has coughed up in the last ten years or have the drug problems that is rampant in the sport that will not die, baseball. Many Kids are drafted at a young age, without college, into the pro’s and it is nearly unheard of. But you take LeBron Whatshisface and it is Big News. Hockey guys, for the most part, generally are humble. And what other sport out there interviews players during the periods? God, I love that. Sweaty, breathing hard…and giving face time to the camera. I’d love to see Basketball get some kind of asskicking it so richly deserves and have baseball replaced with something remotely interesting. Football needs a beating too, though not as much and it is strictly for the Touch Down Dancing stuff that is shameful and boastful. I’ll shut up now. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2005, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138/40 "2005-06-29T14:40:53Z")
> [@Shirley Ujest](#): > > and swearing in four languages Four? English, French, Russian, Swedish, Finnish, Czech… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hockey-star-tells-critical-fans-to-kiss-his-ass/310138.md?page=3)