# Holder CIA Witch Hunt comes up without witches....bitches. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 5, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holder-cia-witch-hunt-comes-up-without-witches-bitches/587952 "2011-07-05T23:21:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holder-cia-witch-hunt-comes-up-without-witches-bitches/587952/41 "2011-07-06T05:30:50Z")
> [@Evil\_One](#): > > That’s why the Holder probe offends me. He let his desire for something to be true to get in the way of the actual truth. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Odd thing to say about the guy who found them innocent (mostly). > > Unless you mean they were really guilty and Holder let them skate. If I understand him correctly, he’s offended that the Attorney General authorized a probe at all, rather than taking the previous administration’s word that there wasn’t anything left to probe. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holder-cia-witch-hunt-comes-up-without-witches-bitches/587952/42 "2011-07-06T05:56:58Z")
> [@Evil\_One](#): > > Sorry for the snark… Sorry for the snark? In the Pit? That’s like there’s no crying in baseball! > [@](#): > > …I was trying to use the phrase to point out that, in my opinion, times have indeed changed… That’s nice, but I haven’t. I didn’t want my people involved in torturing little Asian men in black pajamas, I didn’t want them involved in murdering Hispanic communists, and I don’t want them involved in torturing Islamic nutcases. I am at the very least consistent. I am a flag=waving, red-blooded American radical lefty, and I am sick to _death_ of being ashamed for my country. > [@](#): > > …Like any government agency, I’m sure there are good and bad people in the CIA. But since the agency holds a special place in some quarters as the focus of all evil, I think that gives them pause. They don’t want to be outed the next time the administration changes and the ideological purity wars begin anew… Or, put another way, they have a wholly deserved reputation for unsavory associations and despicable behavior, and therefore may face some prejudice. Duly noted. And “ideological purity” has squat all to do with it, savage and cruel behavior is morally bankrupt whether you are a libertarian or a unicorn. > [@](#): > > …So yes, based on their past actions which have come to light and people who have seen to many movies, I believe the CIA is being more careful in what they do… This is intuition. > [@](#): > > …I certainly would want my ass to be covered if I was obeying the orders of my superior to interrogate someone… The nub of it. They probably were, and they were probably given orders couched in the special ambiguity of ass-covering spooks, what Le Carre called “Yes! Repeat, no!” orders, orders than can be examined after the fact to deflect all possible negative blowback, and catch all positive attaboys. And yes, I think in a position of such ambiguity, and such deliberate avoidance of accountability, it is unjust to hold a lower functionary criminally responsible. They should have been told from the very top from the very git-go, no, don’t do it, don’t even think about doing it. Period. Full stop. They weren’t, and the chain of responsibility goes all the way up, and the failure goes right along with it. So, criminally, no, Holder is probably right, it shouldn’t be done. As well, a totally fair trial beyond reasonable doubt? No way. But that doesn’t mean I don’t have contempt for anyone who would torture another person, and I don’t give a flying fuck who said it was legal. > [@](#): > > …That’s why the Holder probe offends me. He let his desire for something to be true to get in the way of the actual truth. Is this some more of that intuition? If you actually know what he was thinking, by all means, share the procedure with us all! Mind, universal telepathy may not prove to be that great an idea. I can see some drawbacks. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holder-cia-witch-hunt-comes-up-without-witches-bitches/587952/43 "2011-07-06T06:14:34Z")
Well a Republican AG, like, say, Roberto Gonzalez, would have found those witches and sent them to Guantanamo Bay without charges or prosecution. There is ample cause to investigate the torture allegations. It is a federal offense to torture. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holder-cia-witch-hunt-comes-up-without-witches-bitches/587952/44 "2011-07-06T06:21:27Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > If I understand him correctly, he’s offended that the Attorney General authorized a probe at all, rather than taking the previous administration’s word that there wasn’t anything left to probe. Yeah but his wording was odd. If Holder’s desire for something to be true colored his judgement then Holder should have found these guys guilty. Instead, he duly investigated a legitimate issue that may have been a crime and found almost all of them innocent. You’d think **Evil One** would be happy. I guess he thinks having even looked into it was somehow a dastardly deed. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holder-cia-witch-hunt-comes-up-without-witches-bitches/587952/45 "2011-07-06T06:29:52Z")
Being a witch was made [legal.](http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/07/01/torture/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holder-cia-witch-hunt-comes-up-without-witches-bitches/587952/46 "2011-07-06T06:35:26Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Well a Republican AG, like, say, Roberto Gonzalez, would have found those witches and sent them to Guantanamo Bay without charges or prosecution. There is ample cause to investigate the torture allegations. It is a federal offense to torture. Imagine, if you will, John Yoo’s essay declaring burning at the stake to be an acceptable procedure… “Funeral by cremation has a long-standing legitimacy, both legally and culturally…” ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holder-cia-witch-hunt-comes-up-without-witches-bitches/587952/47 "2011-07-06T06:40:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Imagine, if you will, John Yoo’s essay declaring burning at the stake to be an acceptable procedure… > > “Funeral by cremation has a long-standing legitimacy, both legally and culturally…” To me this highlights one of the biggest problems with our legal system (at least at that level). IIRC some other attorneys were unwilling to write the Brief the administration wanted. Solution? Fire those guys and find someone who will. Voila…law made to order. There is always some scumbag willing to sell his soul. Get that attorney on your side who is clear about the result you want and _poof_…you get the law you want and are in the clear. Utter bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holder-cia-witch-hunt-comes-up-without-witches-bitches/587952/48 "2011-07-06T06:51:29Z")
Well, it is often said that the Law is the handjob of Justice… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holder-cia-witch-hunt-comes-up-without-witches-bitches/587952/49 "2011-07-06T07:05:11Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Being a witch was made [legal.](http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/07/01/torture/index.html) Exactly. There’s no “exoneration” here; it’s just part of the general cover up and whitewashing. Having atrocities made legal doesn’t make them any less atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holder-cia-witch-hunt-comes-up-without-witches-bitches/587952/50 "2011-07-06T14:55:10Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > To me this highlights one of the biggest problems with our legal system (at least at that level). > > IIRC some other attorneys were unwilling to write the Brief the administration wanted. Solution? Fire those guys and find someone who will. > > Voila…law made to order. > > There is always some scumbag willing to sell his soul. Get that attorney on your side who is clear about the result you want and _poof_…you get the law you want and are in the clear. > > Utter bullshit. All on the head except for the “utter bullshit” part. You are describing the way the system is **supposed** to work, and no one in human history ever has invented a better. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holder-cia-witch-hunt-comes-up-without-witches-bitches/587952/51 "2011-07-06T15:03:16Z")
> [@Evil\_One](#): > > HEven if they thought they could get away with it, political appointees such as Holder who would stop at nothing to hang them would give them pause. Damn our system to hell. We allow the head of the CIA to be picked by people we elect rather than having it be a separate entity all to itself. Imagine if we did that with the military? How could we have one all those wars if the Sec of Defense was appointed by the President? What we need to do is be more like Pakistan. Their intelligence service does not answer to the government. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holder-cia-witch-hunt-comes-up-without-witches-bitches/587952/52 "2011-07-06T15:06:40Z")
> [@Evil\_One](#): > > SLike any government agency, I’m sure there are good and bad people in the CIA. But since the agency holds a special place in some quarters as the focus of all evil, I think that gives them pause. They don’t want to be outed the next time the administration changes and the ideological purity wars begin anew. And that in a nutshell is the problems with liberals. You wouldn’t see a conservative administration outing a CIA agent for political reasons. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holder-cia-witch-hunt-comes-up-without-witches-bitches/587952/53 "2011-07-06T15:27:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Wait, there are **no witches in the CIA?!** Dammit! No wonder 9/11 happened! :mad: Who’s in charge of recruiting over there, anyhow?! The CIA has been entirely muggle run since George HW Bush took over the agency. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holder-cia-witch-hunt-comes-up-without-witches-bitches/587952/54 "2011-07-07T03:02:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > All on the head except for the “utter bullshit” part. You are describing the way the system is **supposed** to work, and no one in human history ever has invented a better. Huh? So if an attorney tells you that you cannot do “X” then the solution is to find an attorney who is willing to say you can do “X”? Then you are in the clear? How is that a good system? You can _always_ find someone to do that for you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holder-cia-witch-hunt-comes-up-without-witches-bitches/587952.md?page=2)