# Holier-than-thou Monty **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 12, 2002, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662 "2002-06-12T16:07:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662/21 "2002-06-13T15:37:00Z")
p.s. I didn’t assert, insinuate, postulate, or even pretend that any of the Ten Commandments took precedence over any other of them. Apparently, you’re unaware (or just flat out don’t care) that the number of the Decalogue is not a ranking of them. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662/22 "2002-06-13T17:37:34Z")
OK, color me confused. The decalogue doesn’t say “don’t lie.” Many other parts of the Bible do, but the decalogue doesn’t. And AFAICT, the decalogue isn’t the Gospel message. With all respect, **Monty** , a little help? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662/23 "2002-06-13T17:52:15Z")
“Bear false witness” is usually taken to mean “utter other than the truth.” One is to witness to a thing of fact; therefore, if one utters an untruth, one has borne false witness. The Merriam-Webster online dictionary gives one definition of witness as: > [@](#): > > attestation of a fact or event The two (in)famous female missionaries who were detained by the Taliban attested that they would not attempt to convert anyone to their religion when they applied to the Taliban for their visa, and yet they did try to convert people. Does that help? Regarding the difference between the Old Testament commandments and the New Testament message: Oh, man. I’m not touching that debate in a Pit Thread for all the cash in the world! ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662/24 "2002-06-13T18:46:04Z")
**Monty,** what a load of horseshit. We have here, assuming _arguendo_ that lying is prohibited, is a conflict between an affirmative obligation - to preach the gospel to all nations - and a negative obligation - don’t lie. To preach the gospel in Afghanistan, one must lie in order to get into the country in the first place. What to do, what to do? To fulfil the affirmative obligation, one must violate the negative obligation. I submit that christians of good conscience _may disagree as to the solution to this dilemna._ Your accusations of ‘rationalization’ and the like when other christians disagree with your viewpoint is an unfortunately intolerant viewpoint on your part. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I have a sneaking suspicion that if the missionaries in question were Mormon, your answer would be different. Sua ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662/25 "2002-06-13T19:46:29Z")
Thanks, **Sua**. I was starting to wonder if I was posting in Greek (_koine_, of course). **Monty** : I didn’t realize Jesus’ instruction to His followers at the end of the Gospel of Matthew was “their own reasons”. > [@](#): > > Now, explain to me hwo being ashamed of the Gospel message is advancing it. Have you been taking lessons from **Lib** on cryptic responses? I have no idea what you mean. > [@](#): > > I didn’t assert, insinuate, postulate, or even pretend that any of the Ten Commandments took precedence over any other of them. Apparently, you’re unaware (or just flat out don’t care) that the number of the Decalogue is not a ranking of them. Are you being deliberately obtuse? _The comparison/conflict is not between two of the Ten Commandments. It’s between the Ninth Commandment and the NT commandment popularly known as the Great Commission._ [sub]How many times must a man bang his head…[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662/26 "2002-06-13T19:55:19Z")
I’d rather take such lessons from Lib than the obvious Jackass lessons you’re present here. “What to do?” Simple: don’t freaking lie. One can lead a life of example. One such example would be to, get this, not lie. Regarding banging your head: Is that the source of the stupidities you’ve posted here? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662/27 "2002-06-13T19:57:53Z")
Oh, and calling me intolerant is just rich! I’m not intolerant of other religious viewpoints. Just because I pointed out the obvious that a particular two people, in the guise of following their religion, were violating one of its basic tenents does not make me intolerant. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662/28 "2002-06-13T20:53:44Z")
**Monty** : I hear you saying, “The Great Commission doesn’t exist, the Great Commission doesn’t exist, the Great Commission doesn’t exist…” No, seriously, if your response somehow involved Jesus’ instructions in Matt. 28:19, your words would at least have a snowball’s chance of making sense. Without that, your words are in English, but there’s still no meaning. > [@](#): > > One can lead a life of example [rather than verbally witness]. Can I presume that the reason the LDS send missionaries all over the globe is to witness by example? Or are you saying that Christian denominations shouldn’t follow the LDS’ example? (Do as you say, not as you do.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662/29 "2002-06-13T21:01:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > _Inconvenient?_ I would think going halfway around the world to smuggle the Gospel message into Afghanistan would qualify as being willing to _inconvenience_ oneself for the Gospel. Have you done so? Because I believe your original complaint was **you** being characterized as “rationalizing”, not the missionaries. Furthermore, there are many people thawt, strangley enough, prefer physical inconvenience to intellectual inconvenience. > [@](#): > > I claimed that, in the described situation, Commandment A and Commandment B are at loggerheads. But they’re not. If these people were kidnapping Afghans and torturing them until they accepted Christianity, there would be few people willing to state that “don’t torture people” and “preach the gospel” were at loggerheads; clearly “preach the gospel” simply does not come even close to the urgency of the “don’t torture people” rule. If people don’t go lie to get into Afghanistan, they are following one command. If they do lie, they are obeying neither. They aren’t obeying the “don’t lie” command, and they aren’t following the “preach the gospel” one, either. You can’t preach the gospel if you don’t live it. I submit that it is a principle nearly universally accepted that when positive and negative comands conflict, the default is to follow the negative one. If a soldier is given the orders “protect this convoy” and “whatever you do, don’t put your rifle on full auto”, then my interpretation would be that the latter would take precedence. One does not get to diobey one order simply because it makes following another one easier. What you are proposing is that none of the commandments or prohibitions in the Bible are absolute; implicit in each of them is the modification “unless it helps Christinaity”. “Do not kill… unless it helps Christianity”. “Do not steal… unless it helps Christianity”. I find Monty’s belief that this is a defective belief system to be quite reasonable. Something else to consider: did any of the disciples preach to any American country in the first few centuries? If not, were they sinning? Or should we interpret Jesus’ command as meaning “… where reasonable”? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662/30 "2002-06-13T21:17:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > **Monty** : I hear you saying, “The Great Commission doesn’t exist, the Great Commission doesn’t exist, the Great Commission doesn’t exist…” Not only are you a liar, you’re a self-deluded liar. Nowhere did I say, nor even imply, that the Great Commission doesn’t exist. > [@](#): > > No, seriously, if your response somehow involved Jesus’ instructions in Matt. 28:19, your words would at least have a snowball’s chance of making sense. Without that, your words are in English, but there’s still no meaning. Well, you see, I’m not used to writing for morons–I didn’t expect you here. Sorry I couldn’t get down to your level of intentional misunderstanding. > [@](#): > > Can I presume that the reason the LDS send missionaries all over the globe is to witness by example? First off: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not sent missionaries “all over the globe,” just to the countries which permit us to send them there. And part of the missionaries’ job is to be examples. > [@](#): > > Or are you saying that Christian denominations shouldn’t follow the LDS’ example? (Do as you say, not as you do.) Well, since the LDS aren’t doing the “do as I say, not as I do” bit, that’s not even in the realm of reality, let alone relevance. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662/31 "2002-06-13T21:45:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > I believe your original complaint was **you** being characterized as “rationalizing”, not the missionaries. Well, sure, but since I’m effectively picking up the missionaries’ argument and running with it, I think it’s safe to say that they made the same rationalization, and I’m rationalizing _on their behalf_. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, there are many people thawt, strangley enough, prefer physical inconvenience to intellectual inconvenience. I understand that, but don’t you think that’s just a bit excessive? That reminds me of the ancient [_Doonesbury_ strip](http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.cfm?uc_full_date=19720131&uc_daction=X) where B.D. joins the army and goes to Vietnam - to get out of a term paper. (Follow the link, please - it’s a chuckle. :)) > [@](#): > > I submit that it is a principle nearly universally accepted that when positive and negative comands conflict, the default is to follow the negative one. I submit I’ve never heard of this principle. > [@](#): > > If a soldier is given the orders “protect this convoy” and “whatever you do, don’t put your rifle on full auto”, then my interpretation would be that the latter would take precedence. I’d claim it’s the “whatever you do” that makes the second order take precedence. > [@](#): > > What you are proposing is that none of the commandments or prohibitions in the Bible are absolute; Very _good_, Mister Dan-_ger!_ > [@](#): > > I find Monty’s belief that this is a defective belief system to be quite reasonable. I don’t, and I’ll bet you don’t really do so either. Would you join the army? “Thou shalt not kill…unless your country tells you to?” which is about how seriously many fundies take _that_ commandment. Slamming fundies aside, few people would argue with, “Thou shalt not kill…unless _not_ killing would mean that a whole bunch more people would die.” If I’m in Israel and armed, and I see the suicide bomber reaching for the cord that turns him into a bomb, you _bet_ I try to kill him before he blows himself and others up. Want me to come up with exceptions to most of the others? It’s harder to come up with no-exceptions absolutes than you think, and that includes the last seven commandments of the Decalogue. > [@](#): > > Something else to consider: did any of the disciples preach to any American country in the first few centuries? If not, were they sinning? Oh, blow me. Was I sinning a few years ago when I failed to stop a friend’s brother from killing himself? Of course not. Because I didn’t even know he was depressed. Guess I’ll modify the Commandment to “love your neighbor as yourself - where reasonable” per your instructions; it makes about as much sense. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662/32 "2002-06-13T21:55:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > Not only are you a liar, you’re a self-deluded liar. Nowhere did I say, nor even imply, that the Great Commission doesn’t exist. You said it by refusing to acknowledge its existence when the discussion was about two things: the Ninth Commandment and the Great Commission. I think it’s time to let you lalalalalala by yourself; I’m tired of you. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662/33 "2002-06-14T01:46:28Z")
By myself? Heck, you’re the only one in this thread getting peeved at other people for the stuff you’ve read into simple writings. Just saying “Great Commission” like it’s some magic mantra that absolves you of any wrongdoing doesn’t cut it either. Here’s the words (from the KJV) of Matthew 5:18-19 (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, **one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law** , till all be fulfilled. > **Whoseoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven** : but whosever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. And here’s the words of the Great Commission (KJV, Matt 28:19-20 (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: > **Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you** : and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the owrld. Amen. Nowhere do I see Jesus saying to lie your tush off because you think it’s more convenient to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662/34 "2002-06-14T02:13:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SuaSponte \* > Correct me if I’m wrong, but I have a sneaking suspicion that if the missionaries in question were Mormon, your answer would be different. That’s the horse apples there, Sua. If the missionaries were LDS, then they would’ve been going against the Church’s dictates. Also, I’d still feel the same: they lied. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662/35 "2002-06-14T05:35:26Z")
Out of curiousity, would you two care to respond to the points **Sua** and I raised? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662/36 "2002-06-14T10:22:56Z")
Here’s a concept, Truth Seeker: Read the thread. I already did. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662/37 "2002-06-14T16:16:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Nowhere do I see Jesus saying to lie your tush off because you think it’s more convenient to do so. Um, **Monty** , I don’t see where **RTF** said that either. ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662/38 "2002-06-14T18:26:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Here’s a concept, Truth Seeker: Read the thread. I already did. \*\* Good for you, **Monty**! Now read the commandment and answer the question. How is lying to the Taliban about yourself bearing false witness “against your neighbor?” ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662/39 "2002-06-14T23:17:29Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Monty \* By myself? Heck, you’re the only one in this thread getting peeved at other people for the stuff you’ve read into simple writings. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Not only are you a liar, you’re a self-deluded liar. > > > [@](#): > > > > Well, you see, I’m not used to writing for morons–I didn’t expect you here. Sorry I couldn’t get down to your level of intentional misunderstanding. > > > [@](#): > > > > Nowhere do I see Jesus saying to lie your tush off because you think it’s more convenient to do so. > > Apparently I’m not the _only_ one peeved. > > > [@](#): > > > > Just saying “Great Commission” like it’s some magic mantra that absolves you of any wrongdoing doesn’t cut it either. > > Well, at first, I used it as one of the foundations of my position in the original debate. > > But when you responded as if it wasn’t there, I was in fact entitled to wave it around like a magic mantra. Them’s the rules, son: if you don’t actually respond to the strengths of the other guy’s argument, he’s entitled to remind you of the insufficiency of your response until you remedy it or concede. > You quote Jesus’ words: > > > [@](#): > > > > For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whoseoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. > > So, **Monty** , do you have a railing around the roof of your house to keep people from falling off? > > And do Mormons join the armed forces? I’m sure killing is occasionally involved in that occupation. Or is murdering a proper subset of killing, but bearing false witness against one’s neighbor not a proper subset of lying? > > And I guess you _don’t_ honor the least of Paul’s commands about temperate language, but neither have I, I suppose. > > But be that as it may, I’m glad you recognize the authority of Jesus’ words _somewhere_. I was starting to think you guys were the Church of _Moses_ of Latter Day Saints. > > > [@](#): > > > > Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: > > One of them being “go ye therefore and teach all nations”. Not, “go ye therefore, and teach all the nations whose leaders give you permission to talk to their people.” > > The problem is still, if we are not supposed to break the least of these commandments, what happens when they collide? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662/40 "2002-06-15T04:54:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > I understand that, but don’t you think that’s just a bit excessive? Well, yeah. You’re the one arguing in support of their actions. > [@](#): > > I don’t, and I’ll bet you don’t really do so either. Would you join the army? “Thou shalt not kill…unless your country tells you to?” which is about how seriously many fundies take _that_ commandment. I don’t see what you’re getting at. > [@](#): > > Was I sinning a few years ago when I failed to stop a friend’s brother from killing himself? Of course not. Because I didn’t even know he was depressed. And you didn’t know that you didn’t know, either. But not only did the disciples not know about countries in America, they **did** know that they didn’t know about all the countries in the world. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holier-than-thou-monty/113662.md?page=3)