# Holland / Netherlands **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 16, 2004, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646 "2004-06-16T13:33:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646/1 "2004-06-16T13:33:17Z")
Prompted by the football coverage last night: We’re forever explaining the whole UK/Britain/England errors here, but it seems to me that there’s equally an issue with Holland/Netherlands. Last night on the TV the BBC consistantly refered to the Dutch team as Holland. Were they wrong? Or is it, as I suspect, that Holland is only part of the Netherlands, and the football team represents the whole of the Netherlands? I did a SDMB search that found mentions of this issue, but nothing that plainly spelt it out. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646/2 "2004-06-16T13:45:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Holland is the name of a region in the central-western part of the Netherlands. Holland is a former county of the Holy Roman Empire and later the leading member of the Republic of the Seven United Provinces of the Netherlands (1581–1795). > … > > Thus, even though it is officially incorrect, the word Holland is often used by both Dutch (speaking) and foreign people to denote the entire Netherlands, possibly because “The Netherlands” (“Nederland” in Dutch) is such a long word to pronounce. > … > > For a short time (1806–1810), however, there was the Napoleonic Kingdom of Holland, which did encompass the entire Netherlands. [http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Holland](http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Holland) Which I didn’t know - I always assumed they were one and the same. Ho-hum, more ignorance faught 😃 ---
**Author:** ![elfbabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b782af/32.png) [@elfbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfbabe)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646/3 "2004-06-16T13:54:03Z")
To expand slightly on what **GorillaMan** said… The Netherlands contains two provinces, Noord Holland and Zuid Holland, which is where the name “Holland” came from. Holland [was an independent country](http://worldatlas.com/aatlas/infopage/holland.htm) until the 16th century. I have heard that the convention of calling the whole place “Holland” may also come from the fact that those provinces are located on the coast and were thus more likely to produce sailors who would go out, see the world, and tell everyone that they were from Holland, but I can’t produce any sort of cite for this. Reports on how much the windmill-builders will tolerate their whole country being called Holland differ, and I can’t report on that aspect of it, being insufficiently Dutch. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646/4 "2004-06-16T14:23:50Z")
> [@elfbabe](#): > > To expand slightly on what **GorillaMan** said… > > The Netherlands contains two provinces, Noord Holland and Zuid Holland, which is where the name “Holland” came from. Just in case it wouldn’t be clear for the readers, The Netherlands has more than two provinces (I wouldn’t know how much, ten or so, I believe). ---
**Author:** ![Eurograff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Eurograff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eurograff)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646/5 "2004-06-16T16:56:51Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > The Netherlands has more than two provinces (I wouldn’t know how much, ten or so, I believe). Twelve actually, [map of Netherlands](http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/netherlands_map_large.png). Two ‘Holland’ provinces contain the country’s three biggest and most important cities, and have the longest national history, so it’s a pretty logical name after all. In addition, a term like Netherlands/Nederland isn’t very natural to use since it’s a made-up name unlike most country names. Other made up names like UK, USA or USSR have handy acronyms, but there isn’t a similar easy and universal way to shorten Netherlands, thus Holland gets used often, especially in football matches. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646/6 "2004-06-16T20:36:31Z")
Does this mean that _Die Fliegende Hollander_ is routinely mis-translated? ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646/7 "2004-06-17T00:13:59Z")
\Anyone interested in this is probably also interested in Scandinavia. Read here: [http://66.102.11.104/search?q=cache:lVvevKAxXl4J:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia+scandinavia+site:wikipedia.org&hl=en&lr=lang\_en](http://66.102.11.104/search?q=cache:lVvevKAxXl4J:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia+scandinavia+site:wikipedia.org&hl=en&lr=lang_en) But the gist is that it’s supposed to mean Norway, Sweden, and Denmark, is used variously to include Finland and Iceland, or exclude Denmark, etc, to the point where I used to think it meant ‘somewhere in northern europe’ 🙂 \ ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646/8 "2004-06-17T00:35:13Z")
Ok, so why are people from Holland / The Netherlands called “Dutch”? I presume it is related to “Deutsch” for Germans… ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646/9 "2004-06-17T09:48:51Z")
> [@Eurograff](#): > > Two ‘Holland’ provinces contain the country’s three biggest and most important cities, and have the longest national history, so it’s a pretty logical name after all. I can’t see how. Is Texas or New York a logical name for the US? If I was a resident of one of the other provinces/states I’d not be happy about this at all. Anyone know what they say about it? > [@](#): > > In addition, a term like Netherlands/Nederland isn’t very natural to use since it’s a made-up name unlike most country names. 😕 How are other country names not ‘made-up’? It seems to me that the whole Holland/Netherlands confusion is very like what used to be done with Russia/Soviet Union, and that wasn’t right either. Although it hasn’t stopped TV commentators comparing past USSR football performances with the current Russian team, when they are different countries. ---
**Author:** ![PookahMacPhellimey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pookahmacphellimey/32/3175_2.png) [@PookahMacPhellimey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PookahMacPhellimey)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646/10 "2004-06-17T10:10:29Z")
What GorillaMan said it correct. I would never ever say I was from Holland in Dutch. Us people from other regions of the country will even talk about “Hollanders” as a separate set of people, namely those from counties North Holland and South Holland. However, I have no objections saying I’m from Holland in English. It has just come to mean the whole country and it doesn’t feel “wrong” to me. “The Netherlands” always feels a bit contrived and trying too hard IMO. “Nederland” (the Dutch version) does not have that feel. Mind you, don’t be surprised if at least some Dutch people don’t like “Holland” if they are not from a certain part of the country. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646/11 "2004-06-17T10:31:41Z")
> [@PookahMacPhellimey](#): > > I would never ever say I was from Holland in Dutch. Us people from other regions of the country will even talk about “Hollanders” as a separate set of people, namely those from counties North Holland and South Holland. > > However, I have no objections saying I’m from Holland in English. It has just come to mean the whole country and it doesn’t feel “wrong” to me. “The Netherlands” always feels a bit contrived and trying too hard IMO. “Nederland” (the Dutch version) does not have that feel. I propose we adopt “Nederland” into English. Who’s with me? ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646/12 "2004-06-17T10:46:07Z")
What you must remember is that the term ‘Nederland’/‘the Netherlands’ is also ambiguous, as it can mean all the Low Countries. Hence the fact that what is roughly Belgium was once ‘the Spanish Netherlands’ to distinguish it from the United Provinces. In other words, shortening ‘The Kingdom of the Netherlands’ to ‘the Netherlands’ is a bit like shortening ‘the United States of America’ to ‘America’ - arguably wrong, but everyone knows what is meant. It is also worth remembering that a parallel confusion once existed regarding the Spanish Netherlands. As those provinces of the Netherlands which, unlike the others to the north, remained under Spanish rule, they were often referred to in English simply as ‘Flanders’, even although the county of Flanders was only one of the constituent provinces. As with Holland, it was used as the collective name because it was the most powerful of them, as well as the one that happened to be directly opposite England. This confusion doesn’t survive in English only because the name ‘Belgium’ was invented instead. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646/13 "2004-06-17T11:05:53Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > It seems to me that the whole Holland/Netherlands confusion is very like what used to be done with Russia/Soviet Union, and that wasn’t right either. Although it hasn’t stopped TV commentators comparing past USSR football performances with the current Russian team, when they are different countries. And, of course, the infamous “Russian linesman” who gave _that_ dubious goal in the 1966 World Cup final. He was actually from Azerbaijan ([interesting article](http://travel.independent.co.uk/low_res/story.jsp?story=434922&host=2&dir=31)). Of course, at that time Azerbaijan was part of the USSR, so the usual “Soviet = Russian” misapprehension applied. ---
**Author:** ![Eurograff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Eurograff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eurograff)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646/14 "2004-06-17T11:25:00Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > 😕 How are other country names not ‘made-up’? There’s arguably a difference. Names of nationalities and countries like France or Italy have origins often so far in history we often can’t be sure what they’ve meant at first. In other words, they sound more natural. Holland is of this kind, it seems to derive from term “holt land” ie. wooded land. (The English name of the language, Dutch, is an old term that used to mean both Dutch and German folk.) On the contrary, names like United Kingdom, Soviet Union or Österreich (Austria) are names that someone at some point had to actually invent and decide to start using. How well the name sticks depends on many things, particularly how easy it is to use and pronounce, and if there are any possible alternatives people could (correctly or incorrectly) use. Thus while Austria is always known as Austria, the USSR was often referred as Russia, and so on. In this case Nederland was an old name for the region but not any specified area, I think. Then seven northern Dutch provinces became the Republic of the United Netherlands in 1579 and the name Netherlands has been official ever since, except during French revolution. Even the language is usually called Nederlands. This hasn’t stopped others talking about Holland, or even Batavia occasionally. This [article about Holland](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland) agrees with **Gorillaman** and **elfbabe** ’s explanation. Sailors from the maritime provinces simply referred their homeland as “Holland” rather than “Republiek der Zeven Verenigde Nederlanden”. Trade with other Europeans was centered in the big cities of Holland, not other provinces, this had considerable effect too. Also what **APB** said about Belgium/Flanders. > [@](#): > > I can’t see how. Is Texas or New York a logical name for the US? If I was a resident of one of the other provinces/states I’d not be happy about this at all. Anyone know what they say about it? Depends. Look at other examples: Sweden originally refers to Svea tribe in central part of the country, Finnish were historically only the southwesternmost inhabitants of modern Finland, Russia probably derives from the Finnish name for Swedish vikings et cetera. It isn’t unusual that labels somehow begin to mean something different than they used to. (US, on the other hand, started as a union of multiple states, none of which can really be mistaken for the whole country). Anyway, you’re correct. Calling the whole Netherlands as Holland is factually wrong, and at least some of the people from other provinces will be offended with this incorrect usage. Don’t know if they get as angry as Scots do when someone mistakes them as English, though. ---
**Author:** ![swannguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@swannguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swannguy)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646/15 "2004-06-17T14:09:09Z")
Eurograff and Pookah are correct in saying that some people tend to be offended with the incorrect usage of Holland…me being one of them. But only when I am in the Netherlands…I don’t have an issue if somebody over here in the States says I’m from Holland but not back home…the further away you get from Noord and Zuid Holland the stronger the “I’m-not-a-hollander” sentiment gets… One sure way to piss a Sjeng off is to call him a hollander. For those of you not in the know - a Sjeng is a born-and-bred citizen of Maastricht ---
**Author:** ![PookahMacPhellimey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pookahmacphellimey/32/3175_2.png) [@PookahMacPhellimey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PookahMacPhellimey)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646/16 "2004-06-17T14:41:00Z")
> [@swannguy](#): > > I don’t have an issue if somebody over here in the States says I’m from Holland but not back home Substitute “Ireland” for “The States” and that’s pretty much my attitude. Tiny additional point, I think Flemish speaking Belgian use of the term “Hollander” (or “Ollander”) can be somewhat derogatory. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646/17 "2004-06-17T14:49:50Z")
> [@lambchops](#): > > Ok, so why are people from Holland / The Netherlands called “Dutch”? I presume it is related to “Deutsch” for Germans… You’re right about Dutch being related to Deutsch. The names of the languages is where it gets really mixed up. _Hollands_ is what the Dutch call their language. _Duits_ (pron. roughly “deowts”) is what the Dutch call the German language. _Dutch_ is what we now call that language, but it’s what we used to call all the languages from the mouths of the Rhine to the Alps. I’ll stop now. ---
**Author:** ![PookahMacPhellimey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pookahmacphellimey/32/3175_2.png) [@PookahMacPhellimey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PookahMacPhellimey)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646/18 "2004-06-17T14:58:34Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > _Hollands_ is what the Dutch call their language. _Nederlands_ is what we call our language, thank you very much. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646/19 "2004-06-17T18:32:45Z")
> [@swannguy](#): > > Eurograff and Pookah are correct in saying that some people tend to be offended with the incorrect usage of Holland…me being one of them. > > But only when I am in the Netherlands…I don’t have an issue if somebody over here in the States says I’m from Holland but not back home…the further away you get from Noord and Zuid Holland the stronger the “I’m-not-a-hollander” sentiment gets… > > One sure way to piss a Sjeng off is to call him a hollander. > > For those of you not in the know - a Sjeng is a born-and-bred citizen of Maastricht “Holland” meaning “The Netherlands” could almost be considered a colloquialism. It wouldn’t be used in formal speech, and, I think, even in most casual conversation. [aside] What’s the derivation of “sjeng”? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646/20 "2004-06-17T19:39:04Z")
In Spanish it’s worse as the official name for \*The Netherlands \* is _Los Países Bajos_, definitely an ugly name, so everybody calls it Holanda, except in very formal ocassions. I am sure most people here wouldn’t even know that Los Países Bajos is the same as Holanda. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/250646.md?page=2)