# Holland / Netherlands **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 24, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970 "2014-07-24T21:27:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970/41 "2014-07-26T13:42:25Z")
> [@](#): > > That stuff just pisses off our Welsh, Scottish and N. Irish siblings, and we English get the blame for it. That’s why we object to it. That’s not what pisses them off, and that’s not what you’re blamed for. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970/42 "2014-07-26T15:15:44Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > One of the is incorrect. It’s the [UKoGB&NI](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom). > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Can you pronounce that? U Kog Ba Ni It has vowels in all the right places. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970/43 "2014-07-26T15:19:29Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Oh, let’s not get giddy…how many Hollanders do you know who remember World War II? How many do you know? You’re the one who made the assertion. Can you back it up? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970/44 "2014-07-26T15:23:20Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Here’s what Wiki says; So, essentially, “Dutch” or a cognate was a word in all Germanic languages referring to all Germanic people. Over time, the meaning of “Dutch” in English narrowed to refer to the … Hollanders (&c.). > [@](#): > > That’s generally assumed, but in the US German immigrants and people of German descent (rather than from the Netherlands) are commonly referred to as “Dutchmen” or nicknamed “Dutch.” Examples include gangster [“Dutch” Schultz](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Schultz) and baseball player [Honus Wagner](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honus_Wagner), known as “The Flying Dutchman,” And I suppose we could add to that a secondary meaning in American English for some Americans of German origin. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970/45 "2014-07-26T15:25:14Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > I believe my experience trumps yours, and you are wrong. But this isn’t a very GQ argument, is it? > [@watchwolf49](#): > > That’s not what pisses them off, and that’s not what you’re blamed for. **Moderating** Yes, it’s not a GQ argument, and it’s also developed into a bit of a hijack. The discussion of what the UK is called, and especially how people feel about it, is rather offtrack with respect to the OP. Let’s focus on what people from the Netherlands are called. If you want to debate how people feel about various names used for the UK, Great Debates would be more appropriate. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970/46 "2014-07-26T16:37:10Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > How many do you know? You’re the one who made the assertion. Can you back it up? I was quoting Tom Burnam in one of his Misinformation books… I confess to having no other evidence. But as a “Dutchman,” \* Haben Sie die Deutschen gern?\* ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970/47 "2014-07-26T16:47:24Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I was quoting Tom Burnam in one of his Misinformation books… I confess to having no other evidence. That would indeed seem to be an example of misinformation, then.😉 > [@](#): > > But as a “Dutchman,” \* Haben Sie die Deutschen gern?\* What does that have to do with anything? I’m of Irish/German/Swiss ancestry. I seem to recall my Swiss/German grandfather humorously being called “Dutch” on occasion by his friends. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970/48 "2014-07-26T17:03:17Z")
OK, I was wrong…I had concluded from contexts that you were of Dutch ancestry. As for the people of the Netherlands in general, it would seem reasonable to me that they would detest the Germans and the word “Dutch”… I guess there is more to it than that. Or maybe World War II has faded in their memories, perhaps… ---
**Author:** ![polar\_bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@polar\_bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/polar_bear)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970/49 "2014-07-26T17:19:22Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > OK, I was wrong…I had concluded from contexts that you were of Dutch ancestry. As for the people of the Netherlands in general, it would seem reasonable to me that they would detest the Germans and the word “Dutch”… I guess there is more to it than that. Or maybe World War II has faded in their memories, perhaps… Not so much anymore, I actually think a majority liked that they won the world cup… which was unthinkable 10/20 years ago. Sure, some people still live with the 2nd world was, but there really aren’t that many people left from that time. In any case, being called Dutch will not be an issue… maybe if somebody thinks you’re actually German? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970/50 "2014-07-26T18:23:48Z")
Why would WWII necessarily sour them on the word “Dutch”? Given the history if the word as posted above by Colibri ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970/51 "2014-07-26T19:15:26Z")
In response to the last two posts, I must back down… despite my Irish ancestry I do not possess a hatred of the English. I know how long ago the war ended. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970/52 "2014-07-26T19:22:38Z")
It doesn’t take hatred to be annoyed by this kind of thing. Scotland, Wales, and Ireland aren’t considered to be “England” as a general matter, any more than New York is California. But the Dutch don’t necessarily mind bring labeled as “Holland” in certain situations. Fine. Strict parallelism isn’t mandatory. I will still continue to say Queen of England, however. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970/53 "2014-07-26T22:36:58Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > The one is originally a local empire where one nation, the English, basically subjugated surrounding nations, the Scots, Welsh and Irish (of which they retain domain over part). Scotland and England were joined by mutual agreement, not conquest, though they regularly invaded each other before then. > [@Corry\_El](#): > > Canadians aren’t Americans, they’re Canadians. If you don’t like that it’s fine as your opinion but it’s not going to change my (and the great majority of Americans’) usage, and you’re going to sound strange trying to make up anoter term for people or things from the United States. I wasn’t saying Canadians should call themselves Americans. > [@UDS](#): > > The term “British Isles” doesn’t appear until the late sixteenth or early seventeenth century, and is used to call attention to the political connection (then being strongly asserted) of those islands under the British crown. Naturally, in Ireland, this implication is not appreciated and we don’t think Ireland is British in any meaningful sense. > > Northern Ireland residents who call themselves British do so, not because they consider that Ireland is part of the British Isles, but because their identity stresses the historical and current political connection to Great Britain that they have through the United Kingdom. For that reason whether a Northern Ireland resident calls himself “British” is a strong marker of political position and community identification. It has nothing to do with geography. I stand corrected > [@Monty](#): > > One of the is incorrect. It’s the [UKoGB&NI](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom). Darn! I let the invasion plans slip. Now how will we secure the Guinness supplies. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970/54 "2014-07-27T10:02:42Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I will still continue to say Queen of England, however. And I’ll continue to judge those that do so. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970/55 "2014-07-27T10:38:12Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > I have to point out that we in Ireland do not use the term “British Isles”. > > “Britain” refers either to Brittany (a province of France), Wales, or the island otherwise known as Great Britain. “Great Britain” is so called to distinguish it from “Britain” in either of the lesser senses. > > The term “British Isles” doesn’t appear until the late sixteenth or early seventeenth century, and is used to call attention to the political connection (then being strongly asserted) of those islands under the British crown. Naturally, in Ireland, this implication is not appreciated and we don’t think Ireland is British in any meaningful sense. > > Northern Ireland residents who call themselves British do so, not because they consider that Ireland is part of the British Isles, but because their identity stresses the historical and current political connection to Great Britain that they have through the United Kingdom. For that reason whether a Northern Ireland resident calls himself “British” is a strong marker of political position and community identification. It has nothing to do with geography. Ignoring “British” for a moment, it is (?was- 1970s) official Government policy that “Britain” may be used to mean the whole of the UK. There is a thread from my early days here where there was tremendous disagreement because Google did not show it, but I had a Government book on British facts and statistics and the use of “Britain” for the UK was in the introduction. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970/56 "2014-07-27T10:57:45Z")
> [@APB](#): > > The British parallel to that is the ‘England’ cricket team, which includes Wales and which used to include Scotland. Not that many people in Wales or Scotland play cricket. Scotland has many local cricket grounds and IIRC about the same order of active cricketers per head than England! One year it was in the news (when Scottish Cricket was in its ascendency in the noughties) that there were more active cricketers per head in Scotland. England participation rate is 0.018 [http://www.ecb.co.uk/development/get-into-cricket/participation/](http://www.ecb.co.uk/development/get-into-cricket/participation/) Scottish participation rate is about 0.5-1+ percent. It is of course helped by the fact that no one plays soccer or rugby in Scotland so cricket has less competition 😉 The best players tend to drift south rather than play for Scotland, but then many non-English/Welsh play for that team. Can’t speak for Wales. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970/57 "2014-07-27T11:08:43Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > I think you’re illustrating my point. The English imagine that it’s important to non English in the UK to scrupulously use the term UK and avoid ‘England’ where ever the suggestion might arise that the UK _is_ basically England. But IME, knowing many from the non-England parts of the UK, most are not pissed off by this. Because the are practical people who realize that in fact ‘the UK’ comprises England and England’s past conquests in the British Isles (minus the part of Ireland no longer included) and England still does dominate ‘the UK’ in every way. > > And as far as the Queen that’s pretty much exactly like London so you contradict yourself by saying how it’s too to mention that London is also the major city of England besides capital of the UK. By the same token Elizabeth _is_ the Queen of England, though also head of state for the UK, and for that matter also head of state of certain Commonwealth countries. But what’s nonsense is to correct anyone for calling her Queen of England. She is. This has been done on this board many times. There is no Queen of England. Elizabeth the first was but that preceded Union. Since then there is no such person or style as Queen of England. There is a Queen of Canada, Australia, New Zealnd and about ten other countries, but no Queen of England or Queen of Scotland etc. People referring to the Queen of England do so informally, but it is not an official designation. To confuse matters further in Jersey and Guernsey the human being referred to as Queen Elizabeth II is the Duke of Normandy and as such is head of state. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970/58 "2014-07-27T11:15:14Z")
It was not until I moved to Scotland that I realised that although I usually was very correct about referring to England and Scotland as different objects, I had a tendency to slip into anglocentrism using “English” as an adjective. This is difficult when asking what the “English” term for something or the way of doing something collides with “English” as a language, and used carelessly can annoy certain (?most) Scots. I now self correct and use British when appropriate and English when appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970/59 "2014-07-27T13:24:15Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > And I’ll continue to judge those that do so. And I’ll judge those who judge me for that. I don’t ever refer to Scots as English and I don’t refer to the entire U.K. as England. But England has a Queen and she’s it. “Queen of England” is a perfectly accurate description and given that her position is a straight-line successor to other queens of England, insisting otherwise in anything but formal, official contexts is pedantry. It’s the same with “chief justice of the United States” and “chief justice of the Supreme Court.” The former is the official former title, but it’s pedantry to always correct the latter because it’s literally true. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970/60 "2014-07-27T14:25:26Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > And I’ll continue to judge those that do so. > [@Pjen](#): > > Ignoring “British” for a moment, it is (?was- 1970s) official Government policy that “Britain” may be used to mean the whole of the UK. There is a thread from my early days here where there was tremendous disagreement because Google did not show it, but I had a Government book on British facts and statistics and the use of “Britain” for the UK was in the introduction. > [@Pjen](#): > > Scotland has many local cricket grounds and IIRC about the same order of active cricketers per head than England! One year it was in the news (when Scottish Cricket was in its ascendency in the noughties) that there were more active cricketers per head in Scotland. > > England participation rate is 0.018 > > [http://www.ecb.co.uk/development/get-into-cricket/participation/](http://www.ecb.co.uk/development/get-into-cricket/participation/) > > Scottish participation rate is about 0.5-1+ percent. > > It is of course helped by the fact that no one plays soccer or rugby in Scotland so cricket has less competition 😉 > The best players tend to drift south rather than play for Scotland, but then many non-English/Welsh play for that team. > > Can’t speak for Wales. > [@Pjen](#): > > It was not until I moved to Scotland that I realised that although I usually was very correct about referring to England and Scotland as different objects, I had a tendency to slip into anglocentrism using “English” as an adjective. This is difficult when asking what the “English” term for something or the way of doing something collides with “English” as a language, and used carelessly can annoy certain (?most) Scots. > > I now self correct and use British when appropriate and English when appropriate. > [@Acsenray](#): > > And I’ll judge those who judge me for that. I don’t ever refer to Scots as English and I don’t refer to the entire U.K. as England. But England has a Queen and she’s it. “Queen of England” is a perfectly accurate description and given that her position is a straight-line successor to other queens of England, insisting otherwise in anything but formal, official contexts is pedantry. It’s the same with “chief justice of the United States” and “chief justice of the Supreme Court.” The former is the official former title, but it’s pedantry to always correct the latter because it’s literally true. **Moderator Instructions** Once again, the topic of this thread is Holland/Netherlands, not Britain. This extended discussion of the ins and outs of the terminology for residents of the UK has developed into a hijack. If you want to pursue this discussion, please open a new thread in Great Debates. Let’s get back to the subject of the OP. Colibri General Questions Moderator [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holland-netherlands/693970.md?page=4)