# Hollands 2-nd political murder in 500 years: director Theo van Gogh shot by muslim **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 3, 2004, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hollands-2-nd-political-murder-in-500-years-director-theo-van-gogh-shot-by-muslim/272744 "2004-11-03T13:54:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hollands-2-nd-political-murder-in-500-years-director-theo-van-gogh-shot-by-muslim/272744/41 "2004-11-07T20:35:15Z")
**gum:** _I’ve never mentioned all muslims._ Well, when you use the word “Muslims” without any qualifier, in expressions like “Muslims enjoy calling unbelievers ‘swine’” or “What Muslims mean when they say their faith is ‘tolerant’ is that they will not kill you if you submit”, then you **are** giving the impression that you intend such comments to apply to **all** Muslims. When you limit your outrage specifically to the Islamist extremists, violent fanatics, hatemongers, and criminals who actually commit or encourage these atrocities, I don’t disagree with you at all. **gum:** \*I’m sick of your sort. You and all the rest of the pathetic PC people are guilty as well of this murder. You are the ones that gave this muslim the idea he was doing good. \* This is sheer irrational raving. Of course I’m not in any way guilty of this murder, and of course I never condoned or encouraged any such hateful and violent acts, and of course I never said anything that would imply to Mohammad B. or anyone else that a vicious hate-crime murder is “doing good.” **gum** : _He wasn’t poor, he wasn’t a victim._ I never said he was. **gum:** _He’s a filthy murderous GOATFUCKER_ I agree. By the way: I went to the www.maroc.nl site that you mentioned in a different thread, and I found this condemnation of the murder of van Gogh that I thought you might appreciate seeing. > [@](#): > > Helaas, > > In de ochtend van 2 november jl. is Theo van Gogh op een dramatische en mensonwaardige manier aan het einde van zijn leven gekomen. > > Wij van Stichting Maroc.NL veroordelen dit uiteraard sterk. > > Ondanks dat wij fel tegen van Gogh waren in zijn uitingen jegens de Islam, zijn wij uiteraraard van mening dat iemand nooit fysiek zou mogen worden aangevallen voor het uiten van zijn mening. > > Onze gedachten gaan uit naar de nabestaanden, kennissen en goede vrienden van van Gogh. > > Wij wensen iedereen sterkte toe. My Dutch is still pretty sketchy, so please correct me where necessary, but as far as I can tell this means something like: > [@](#): > > Alas, > > On the morning of 2 November Theo van Gogh’s life was ended in a dramatic and unworthy-of-a-human-being [um, inhumane?] manner. > > We at the Institution Maroc.NL naturally strongly condemn this. > > Although we were severe against van Gogh in his utterances towards Islam, we are naturally of the opinion that nobody should ever be physically attacked for the expression of their opinion. > > Our thoughts go out to the relations, acquaintances and good friends of van Gogh. > > We wish everybody strength. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hollands-2-nd-political-murder-in-500-years-director-theo-van-gogh-shot-by-muslim/272744/42 "2004-11-07T20:55:06Z")
heh. I \*knew \* you aren’t living in the real world. That piece is written by the owner of the website. Have you read the answers? [if they’re still there - if not, try to see the discrepancies in post answers] Quote by Kimstu: \* Well, when you use the word “Muslims” without any qualifier, in expressions like “Muslims enjoy calling unbelievers ‘swine’” or “What Muslims mean when they say their faith is ‘tolerant’ is that they will not kill you if you submit”, then you are giving the impression that you intend such comments to apply to all Muslims.\* Frankly my dear, I don’t give a flying fuck as to what impression I give. I know what I am. Which is more than you do. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hollands-2-nd-political-murder-in-500-years-director-theo-van-gogh-shot-by-muslim/272744/43 "2004-11-07T20:55:13Z")
> [@gum](#): > > Ofcourse not, you twat. Are you blind as well as stupid? Well hell, I wish you’d said that in the previous diatribe of yours about a fortnight ago. Because you certainly never said anything as sensible in _that_ thread. With that in mind, I can agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment. Do you realise that during that previous thread it was that distinction that kept it going for so long? Amusing, though, the umbrage you took to a vaginal epithet then, yet use one yourself in this thread… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hollands-2-nd-political-murder-in-500-years-director-theo-van-gogh-shot-by-muslim/272744/44 "2004-11-07T20:58:50Z")
posted by **jjimm** > [@](#): > > _With that in mind, I can agree wholeheartedly with your sentiment._ Thank you. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hollands-2-nd-political-murder-in-500-years-director-theo-van-gogh-shot-by-muslim/272744/45 "2004-11-07T21:07:05Z")
**gum:** _That piece is written by the owner of the website._ Yes, I know. What’s wrong with that? I’m not suggesting that everybody who posts on that website agrees with it, but I thought it was a good thing to see such a clear condemnation of the van Gogh murder as the official statement on a Moroccan-Dutch website. **gum:** _Frankly my dear, I don’t give a flying fuck as to what impression I give. I know what I am. Which is more than you do._ Well, the impression you give by what you write in your posts is the only way I have of knowing anything about what you are. Here on an anonymous message board, your posts are all we know about you. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hollands-2-nd-political-murder-in-500-years-director-theo-van-gogh-shot-by-muslim/272744/46 "2004-11-07T21:30:25Z")
Originally posted by **Kimstu** > [@](#): > > \*gum: That piece is written by the owner of the website. > > Yes, I know. What’s wrong with that? I’m not suggesting that everybody who posts on that website agrees with it, but I thought it was a good thing to see such a clear condemnation of the van Gogh murder as the official statement on a Moroccan-Dutch website.\* It is _not_ an official statement. We haven’t recieved _any_ official statement from Morocco. & > [@](#): > > - > > Well, the impression you give by what you write in your posts is the only way I have of knowing anything about what you are. Here on an anonymous message board, your posts are all we know about you. \* I suggest you read some more of my posts. I’m not an armchair left-winger. From [http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story\_page/0,5744,11317298%5E2703,00.html](http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11317298%255E2703,00.html) Another arrest in van Gogh murder AP November 08, 2004 AMSTERDAM: Police have detained another suspect in relation to the killing of Dutch film-maker Theo van Gogh. They have also arrested two other men who are accused of calling for the beheading of an anti-immigration politician. The 23-year-old arrested in connection with van Gogh’s death is the eighth suspect belonging to a gang of young Muslim radicals who, Dutch prosecutors say, conspired to murder the film-maker over a movie critical of Islam. In the other arrests, two men – aged 20 and 23 – were detained in connection with a video promising “paradise” in return for the beheading of politician Geert Wilders, prosecutors said in a statement. Mr Wilders, a right-wing conservative who has been outspoken in his opposition to immigration to The Netherlands, recently split from his mainstream party because it favoured a bid by predominantly Muslim Turkey to join the European Union. Prosecutors said the suspects used an internet group website to place a video with the text: “The punishment is beheading and the reward for doing it is paradise.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hollands-2-nd-political-murder-in-500-years-director-theo-van-gogh-shot-by-muslim/272744/47 "2004-11-07T21:42:12Z")
**gum:** \*It is not an official statement. We haven’t recieved any official statement from Morocco. \* I never said it was an official statement **from Morocco**. But it certainly does appear to be the official statement of the www.maroc.nl website, as I said. It’s up on their front page, it claims to speak for the “Stichting Maroc.NL”, and it’s signed “Stichting Maroc.NL”. **gum:** \*I suggest you read some more of my posts. \* I read all of your posts, at least the ones in GD, GQ, and the Pit. **gum:** \*I’m not an armchair left-winger. \* That much is certainly clear. The fact that you’re not biased against all Muslims in general is not so clear, from the impression you’re giving. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2004, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hollands-2-nd-political-murder-in-500-years-director-theo-van-gogh-shot-by-muslim/272744/48 "2004-11-07T23:37:11Z")
I’m sure **Kimstu** will translate this and tell y’all what the Stichting Maroc. nl and www.maroc.nl really is. [http://www.maroc.nl/forums/showthread.php?threadid=116573](http://www.maroc.nl/forums/showthread.php?threadid=116573) I’m tired. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hollands-2-nd-political-murder-in-500-years-director-theo-van-gogh-shot-by-muslim/272744/49 "2004-11-08T16:28:51Z")
> [@gum](#): > > I’m sure **Kimstu** will translate this and tell y’all what the Stichting Maroc. nl and www.maroc.nl really is. So what is it “really”, gum? I looked at the website and what it seems to be “really” is a website that seems to be targetting a Muslim audience in The Netherlands and more specific those of Moroccanb origin. So do you want to say that a website visited by Muslims in The Netherlands and that openly condemns the murder of a Dutch citizen and offers condolences to the relatives and friends is something wrong, or what are you trying to say? I think you are trying to say that whenever Muslims openly (and in this wase bvisible for the whole world) condemn violence, you want to dismiss that by all means because it does not fit in your bigotted reasoning. By the way: Since when is “Blijf van mijn Lijf” for Muslim-women-only? Because you act here as if you so altruistic focus your entire life on helping these poor battered “Muslim” women. No Dutch women ever visiting the place? You must live Paradise-Land there. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hollands-2-nd-political-murder-in-500-years-director-theo-van-gogh-shot-by-muslim/272744/50 "2004-11-08T20:41:57Z")
**gum:** _I’m sure Kimstu will translate this and tell y’all what the Stichting Maroc. nl and www.maroc.nl really is. [http://www.maroc.nl/forums/showthre...threadid=116573](http://www.maroc.nl/forums/showthre...threadid=116573)_ Aw geez **gum** , that’s like a half-page paragraph, and it’s much more difficult writing than the other post I did! Oh well, I suppose it’s all good practice for my Dutch comprehension. All righty, here goes: > [@](#): > > Maroc.NL “Prikbord” [bulletin board?] > [Forum:] Wie schrijft die blijft > [Thread title:] Ze weten alles de viezerikken! > > [Post author:] Alli Chemicali > Moslimronselingen beginnen op internet > > We gaan nog even door op Marokko.nl: De website van El Tawheed wordt namelijk gehost door het bestuur van Marokko.nl. Ableraghman el S., de zoon van de voorzitter van deze radicale moskee maakt zelfs deel uit van de directie van het forum voor Marokkaanse jongeren. De samenwerking tussen de twee stichtingen is zeer innig. Zo heeft Marokko.nl bijvoorbeeld een sms-dienst die ‘powered is bij el Tawheed’. Bijna alle El Tawheed-sites worden gemaakt door medewerkers van Marokko.nl. We hebben geen bewijzen dat de haatdragende MSN-sites eveneens door marokko.nl-makers gemaakt worden, maar zeker is dat deze sites het duistere en radicale gezicht van de moskee tonen: waar ongelovigen zoals Wilders moeten sterven en waar homo’s van flatgebouwen gegooid moeten worden. In Marokko.nl wordt er steevast verwezen naar de sites, met positief en negatief commentaar. Natuurlijk heeft het merendeel van de 64.000 (!) leden van Marokko.nl niets met radicalisme te maken en racisme in het forum wordt snel verwijderd. > Het forum is voor veel Marokkanen wel het eerste contact met islam-hardliners en hun louche sites. Trouwens, ook de voorzitter van AEL-Nederland, Nabil Marmouch zit op marokko.nl. Hij post regelmatig polariserende berichten en onlangs opende hij in het forum nog een ‘meldlijn’ waar moslims ‘anti-moslimacties’ kunnen doorbellen. Hij post onder de nickname ‘Mokromike’. > Wie zich afvraagt hoe marokko.nl aan het geld komt moet onder andere bij het bedrijfsfonds voor de pers zijn en andere subsidieclubs. In 2002 kreeg Marokko.nl namelijk 66.768 euro voor het inmiddels stilletjes verdwenen nieuws.marokko.nl, een site waarop een aantal RSS-feeds te lezen waren en af en toe wat overgetikte berichtjes. Maar goed: het ronselen en de voorselectie begint ook op internet… Vaste bezoekers van zowel GeenStijl en maroc.nl wijzen ons erop dat een van de twee Eindhovense Marokkanen die in 2002 geronseld werden door een extremistische groepering en doodgeschoten werden in de Indiase deelstaat Kashmir, nl. Lucky Luke, een vaste bezoeker was van het forum en met name de chatbox op maroc.nl. (en alleen niet op marokko.nl zoals we eerder schreven) And here’s my attempt at translation: > [@](#): > > [Forum:] Who writes what remains [?] > [Thread title:] They all know the dirty fellows! [?] > > [Post author:] Alli Chemicali > Muslim recruitings begin on the Internet > > We proceed equally on Marokko.nl: The website of El Tawheed becomes namely hosted through the administration of Marokko.nl. Ableraghman el S., the son of the “foresitter” [? imam? my Dutch dictionary is old and doesn’t have a lot of the contemporary Muslim-related definitions in it] of this radical mosque himself forms part of the direction of this forum for Moroccan youth. The cooperation between the two institutions is very earnest. So Marokko.nl has, for example, an sms-service that is “powered by el Tawheed”. Almost all El Tawheed-sites were made by colleagues from Marokko.nl. We have no evidence that the hate-bearing MSN-sites even once were made through marokko.nl-makers, but it is certain that these sites show a dark and radical image of the mosque: where unbelievers such as Wilders have to die and where homos from apartment buildings have to be thrown. In Marokko.nl there is regular realization [? wtf] to the sites, with positive and negative commentary. Of course the greater part of the 64,000 (!) members of Marokko.nl make not with radicalism and racism in the forum is quickly removed. > > The forum is for many Moroccans the first contact with Islam hard-liners and their phony sites. Indeed, the “foresitter” of AEL-Netherland too, Nabil Marmouch, is on marokko.nl. He posts regular polarizing news and recently he opened in the forum another “report line” where Muslims can call through [?] “anti-Muslim acts”. He posts under the nickname “Mokromike”. > > [Anyone] who asks themselves how Marokko.nl comes by money must under another the industry-funds for the press be and other subsidy-clubs. [? wtf?] In 2002 Marokko.nl got namely 66,768 euros for the meanwhile-secret verdwenen [?] nieuws.marokko.nl, a site where a number of RSS-feeds were to read, and now and then some overdrawn news. Better: the recruiting and pre-selection begins on the internet… Regular visitors from both GeenStijl and maroc.nl showed us that one of the two Eindhoven Moroccans who in 2002 were recruited through an extremist group and were killed in the Indian state Kashmir, namely Lucky Luke, was a regular visitor of the forum and with chatbox-name on maroc.nl (and not only on marokko.nl as we first wrote). Whew. If anyone understands what I just said, kindly explain it to me. 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