# Holloway Parents, get a grip. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 17, 2006, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934 "2006-02-17T12:42:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934/21 "2006-02-17T22:34:29Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > No shit. If I ever lose a child under similar circumstances, then I’ll feel I can pass judgement on the Holloway parents’ actions. Until then, they get a huge assload of slack. Hey, I can understand grief, but it’s been almost a year - their slack for being media whores ran out a long time ago. I think they’re still ticked off Katrina stole their thunder. There’s pain, and then there’s turning your daughter’s last hours into some sort of _grand guignol_ fantasy. Notice the charge accuses Joran of: “malicious, wanton and willful disregard of the rights, safety and well-being of the plaintiffs and their daughter, Natalee Holloway.” It’s clear who’s the centre of things, and it isn’t the Missing Pretty White Woman. ---
**Author:** ![if6was9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47c2d/32.png) [@if6was9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/if6was9)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934/22 "2006-02-18T00:18:55Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > It’s odd that the alleged events took place in Aruba, while the suit has been lodged in a New York court. Why not in Aruba? Why not Alabama? ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934/23 "2006-02-18T01:28:32Z")
> [@if6was9](#): > > Why not Alabama? WAGs: • not a former Dutch colony • insufficient numbers of media-crazy lawyers to constitute an effective lobby ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934/24 "2006-02-18T01:57:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Hey, I can understand grief, but it’s been almost a year - their slack for being media whores ran out a long time ago. I think they’re still ticked off Katrina stole their thunder. So a year’s the cutoff point, huh? How many children of your’s are missing and presumed dead? When that happens, let us know how much better you feel after a year. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934/25 "2006-02-18T04:41:10Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > …how do you sue a Dutch national in a US court? When the alleged actions took place in Aruba? As we’re discussing in [a bit of a hijack of this GQ thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=359316), the New York court has jurisdiction over the van der Sloots because the plaintiffs were able to personally serve them with summonses in New York. In short, in [BURNHAM v. SUPERIOR COURT, 495 U.S. 604 (1990)](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=495&page=604), the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the practice under which a court obtains valid jurisdiction over the person of a defendant if that defendant voluntarily enters the court’s state and is personally served with legal process there. Even if a court has jurisdiction, however, the case may be dismissed on the grounds of _forum non conveniens_, or that the forum is an inconvenient place to have the trial. Because none of the parties, witnesses, activities at issue or evidence are in New York, I believe that the case will be thrown out of the New York courts on this ground. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934/26 "2006-02-18T07:26:56Z")
There’s a lot of understandable anger among the black community in Birmingham AL (the metro area of which Holloway is from) over two black people, one a young girl and the other a middle aged man, who went missing the same week as Valerie Holloway. Both were from working class families, neither was particularly photogenic or attractive, they weren’t from Mountain Brook (the ritzy subdivision in which Natalie grew up- not that there’s anything wrong with that) and they’re both pretty much totally gone-forgotten-vamoos-‘too bad/so sad’. The local press was shamed into doing a local story on them, and once in a blue moon they’ll be mentioned in a “also no word on \_\_\_\_ and \_\_\_\_” five second blip at the end of a 15 minutes pointless article on the (absolutely undeniably tragic) Holloway case. Wonderful what some really cute blonde pics and a BMW driving family will do for you if something bad happens. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934/27 "2006-02-18T07:52:23Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > So a year’s the cutoff point, huh? Did I say it was? I said a year was too much, not a cutoff. This doesn’t mean “a year is too long for grieving parents to mourn”, it means “A year is too long for media whores to keep hogging the spotlight for what should have been a 15 min. wonder”. And yes, before anyone brings it up, I’m aware the media’s complicit too. That has fuck-all to do with whether the parents are attention-seeking grandstanders. > [@Revtim](#): > > How many children of your’s are missing and presumed dead? When that happens, let us know how much better you feel after a year. Hey, I never said the parents shouldn’t grieve, but nice strawman you’re torching there. I _said_ they shouldn’t whore the spectre of their dead daughter with a lawsuit featuring writing Anne Rice would be ashamed of. So either show where I’ve said they shouldn’t grieve (privately), or shut the fuck up about it. Plus, this “you have to lose a child to understand their pain” is bullshit. I don’t have to lose a loved one to know what it’s like (not that I haven’t, either). It’s called Empathy, you twat. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934/28 "2006-02-18T08:02:14Z")
> [@Billdo](#): > > … > Even if a court has jurisdiction, however, the case may be dismissed on the grounds of _forum non conveniens_, or that the forum is an inconvenient place to have the trial. Because none of the parties, witnesses, activities at issue or evidence are in New York, I believe that the case will be thrown out of the New York courts on this ground. Thanks for the legal info, **Billdo** ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934/29 "2006-02-18T08:05:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > This doesn’t mean “a year is too long for grieving parents to mourn”, it means “A year is too long for media whores to keep hogging the spotlight for what should have been a 15 min. wonder”. And yes, before anyone brings it up, I’m aware the media’s complicit too. That has fuck-all to do with whether the parents are attention-seeking grandstanders. The problem is that the only way that the parents have, _in their minds_, to find justice for their daughter is to be attention-seeking grandstanders. I don’t agree that it’s the most effective way. I don’t like it, nor the highlights of the wording of this lawsuit I’ve seen in this thread. But I don’t really think it’s something I can quite condemn the parents for doing, either. (I’ve paid as little attention as possible to the ongoing story, to be honest. I tend to believe that the girl is dead, murdered by the persons who have been accused. I recognize that without a body proof is not likely to be found. And that I may be wrong.) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934/30 "2006-02-18T08:17:14Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > The problem is that the only way that the parents have, _in their minds_, to find justice for their daughter is to be attention-seeking grandstanders. I don’t agree that it’s the most effective way. I don’t like it, nor the highlights of the wording of this lawsuit I’ve seen in this thread. > > But I don’t really think it’s something I can quite condemn the parents for doing, either. I understand. I, however, have no such scruples. They’re grandstanding media whores, and I think this has gone beyond their understandable grief and anger, into spite and sour grapes. Hell, I’d have more respect if Twitty pulled out a gun and shot the kid. It’d make a lot more sense to me than the sick fantasy that suit represents. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934/31 "2006-02-18T13:16:09Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Did I say it was? I said a year was too much, not a cutoff. That’s what a cutoff is, idiot. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Plus, this “you have to lose a child to understand their pain” is bullshit. I don’t have to lose a loved one to know what it’s like (not that I haven’t, either). It’s called Empathy, you twat. Maybe you think you know what “empathy” means, but you sure as fuck don’t have any. If you had even a tiny bit, you wouldn’t pit parents trying to find some closure over the _death of child_ because of the “melodrama” and how it makes them look. Being able to spell “empathy” isn’t the same as actually experiencing it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934/32 "2006-02-18T16:41:42Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > That’s what a cutoff is, idiot. No, fuckwit, it isn’t. the cutoff could just as well be at 6 months, and 1 year would still be too much. “Too much” doesn’t give you the singlest clue what the lower limit is. Dumbass > [@Revtim](#): > > Maybe you think you know what “empathy” means, but you sure as fuck don’t have any. If you had even a tiny bit, you wouldn’t pit parents trying to find some closure over the _death of child_ because of the “melodrama” and how it makes them look. Being able to spell “empathy” isn’t the same as actually experiencing it. There’s trying to find closure, and then there’s (re)launching a media circus that just happens to involve the most lurid made-up stories about your oh-so loved one’s demise. That’s not “trying to find closure” anywhere (outside 'bama, it seems), it is melodrama (without the pathetic scare quotes). It’s mediawhoring, and it’s pathetic. Just because I think this particular case is one of attention seeking, doesn’t mean I have no empathy. I just don’t think it applies in this case. The parent’s own actions are what lead me to that conclusion. But go on thinking I’m an unfeeling monster, and they’re just so distraught by what happened that they had no choice but to launch a go-nowhere lawsuit which only serves to keep them in the headlines. I don’t give a fduck what you think about me or my empathic abilities, because you’re clearly a fucknugget of the first order. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934/33 "2006-02-18T16:51:36Z")
A _fduck_, of course, is a furry duck. A [_B]fuck_\*\*, on the other hand, is what I wouldn’t give to **Revtim** ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934/34 "2006-02-18T16:53:33Z")
…but I also don’t give a fuck about my coding, it seems. Ah well! ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934/35 "2006-02-18T22:58:32Z")
Natalee’s lost a whole of points with me back when she threw her original “there’s no justice in Aruba” tantrum, _right in the middle of the whole island being mobilized to look for the girl_. But sure, a distraught mother will vent, even if it hurts her case. Still the lurid “recreation” of Natalee’s death in the suit, for which there’s no real evidence that we know of, does seem out of place. How do they know that last night involved “torment, terror and assault”? It may be that they’re concerned that many people have the hypothesis has Natalee as a willing participant, though exercising bad judgement, in a night of revelry that ends with someone doing something fatally stupid – and are trying to “defend her honor” in a way. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934/36 "2006-02-18T23:00:12Z")
Natalee’s **mother** lost points. The proofreading trouble seems to be contagious. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934/37 "2006-02-19T01:03:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I understand. I, however, have no such scruples. > > They’re grandstanding media whores, and I think this has gone beyond their understandable grief and anger, into spite and sour grapes. Hell, I’d have more respect if Twitty pulled out a gun and shot the kid. It’d make a lot more sense to me than the sick fantasy that suit represents. Media whores? They’re trying to get justice for their daughter by keeping attention on her case. The term media whore implies they’re doing this for some sort of tangible gain or profit, or that they have some sort of ulterior motives. When your daughter is murdered and the killer(s) are unknown and running free I can imagine that every waking moment of your life was overshadowed by the unimaginable injustice of it all. And so what if it is spite and sour grapes? Sour fucking grapes? Yeah, I think I’d have a lot more than sour grapes if my daughter was murdered, I’d probably have a sour fucking vineyard. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934/38 "2006-02-19T06:25:16Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Media whores? They’re trying to get justice for their daughter by keeping attention on her case. The term media whore implies they’re doing this for some sort of tangible gain or profit, or that they have some sort of ulterior motives. When your daughter is murdered and the killer(s) are unknown and running free I can imagine that every waking moment of your life was overshadowed by the unimaginable injustice of it all. And so what if it is spite and sour grapes? Sour fucking grapes? Yeah, I think I’d have a lot more than sour grapes if my daughter was murdered, I’d probably have a sour fucking vineyard. I understand that, but the complaint is itself such a piece of PR that I have trouble not getting angry when I read it. I’m OK with the parents wanting to hurt this guy in whatever way they can. I don’t think that the complaint should have imagined vignettes of sexual molestation, though. Again, I wonder, who is thinking this garbage up? There’s no evidence that this happened; there’s no physical evidence whatsoever. It can’t help the parents to imagine their daughter being felt up in her final moments of consciousness. You put an idea like that in their heads and you guarantee that nothing will bring them peace, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934/39 "2006-02-19T14:54:37Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Yeah, I think I’d have a lot more than sour grapes if my daughter was murdered, I’d probably have a sour fucking vineyard. yeah, understood, but would _you_ instigate lawsuits which serve no purpose other than as (particularly lurid) press releases? My daughter’s never turned up missing, but I can tell you now, I wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934/40 "2006-02-19T17:47:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > yeah, understood, but would _you_ instigate lawsuits which serve no purpose other than as (particularly lurid) press releases? My daughter’s never turned up missing, but I can tell you now, I wouldn’t. I doubt Cindy Sheehan ever envisoned herself getting arrested at a State of the Union address. I doubt John Walsh ever envisioned himself as a crusader against criminals. And then, one day there was a knock at the door. And it changed everything. If you want to attack the media for keeping this story alive, I’ll give you that. But I think it’s unseemly to attack people who have borne more pain than you’ll ever know and act like you are somehow above all that. Bullshit. It’s akin to Tom Cruise lecturing postpartum moms on the fallacy of anti-depressants. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holloway-parents-get-a-grip/344934.md?page=3)