David B, I most assuredly am fond of a good pub, but it really was my pugs I was thinking of when I chose my handle. Set 'em up.
Sure, some could - but it’s a very rare exception in the Western world, e.g. Canada or the US or Western Europe. Not many kids grow up in Holocaust-denying households and many that do reject it. And of course being raised in such households will lead to many of the problems detailed above.
Obviously, in 1938 Germany or even today’s Damascus, you might find a lot of people who have just been taught all their lives that Jews are evil.
Holocaust deniers are disproportionately young and unlikely to have successful sexual relationships. Many eventually grow out of it, too, as they mature and learn to deal with their problems.
The connection between holocaust deniers and unsuccessful sexual relationships seems tenuous. I would appreciate some more corroboration on that.
In fact, you just said many of them are young. Could that not in itself be a cause of many unsuccessful sexual relationships, without implicating holocaust denial?
In a very limited way, you could say that I was a "Holocaust denier- the Holocaust was NOT “the killing of 6 million Jews by the Nazis”, as this does not take into account the hundreds of thousands of Gays, the million or so Gypsies, and (since my people are included here) the UP TO seven million Slavs. Sorry, pet peeve.
And, some folks who have simply thought that the estimates were high, have also been tarred with that same 'racist, anti-semetic, neo-nazi*" brush. Of course there is a difference from thinking they are too high by an order of magnitude -compared to thinking they might be off by some 20%.
*altho most are these things.
You said “. If you knew you were going to be executed, would you just go along with the executioner?”
You later remarked later in the answer about people lined outside of the crematoriams, possibly being led to their deaths. Do we take it that the detainees in these lines did not know what was going to happen. Why did they not try to escaspe, revolt, anything except being led to their deaths. You answer does not make sense unless you were a jew.
Remember that they had seen what happens to those who cause “problems” – they are either shot on the spot, or beaten to death, or otherwise killed. The Nazis set up the gas chambers as “the big lie”, as though they were showers, and people wanted desparately to believe that. The enormity of what was happening didn’t even dawn on most of them.
So, once you’re in the line, unarmed, surrounded by well-armed and vicious Nazi guards, you know what will happen if you rebel. You don’t know EXACTLY what will happen if you go along compliantly. And so people go along compliantly, in hopes that the showers are real.
Thye rebellions that did happen were BEFORE the victims were rounded up, such as the famous Warsaw Ghetto uprising.
Okay, I don’t think I quite understand your statement here…are you saying that only Jews would believe this because anyone else would have fought back against the Nazis? If so, then you obviously haven’t the foggiest notion of what transpired. These people had been slave laborers for the most part, and had been subjected to the worst possible living conditions imagineable. They were physically and mentally abused in an attempt to totally break their will and reduce them to mindless slaves and I do not see how ANYONE can deny the volumes of first person testimonials and Nazi records that verify this tragic historical event. Anyone who thinks that they just should have tried to “escaspe, revolt, anything except being led to their deaths” has watched too many damn movies or has been reading too many issues of “Nick Fury And His Howling Commandos.” The war was not a John Wayne movie!!! People died!!!
ah, but not I’ve gone off in a rage fueled rant…I digress
Living in the south, and seeing first hand the indoctirination of hate and ignorance, I can understand all too well how these beliefs are spread through families “educat’n” their children. It boggles my mind though, that they never actually bother to study the facts to discover the truth, ensuring that history will repeat itself in some way, shape, or form.
Humans, gotta love 'em…
This Tuesday (Halloween), Nova will be about the David Irving Holocaust denial trial. Check your local listings.
go to http://www.mrdeath.net/
The research must be a joke becase the Conclusion reads…
After reviewing all of the material and inspecting all of the sites at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek, your author finds the evidence as overwhelming. There were no execution gas chambers at any of these locations. It is the best engineering opinion of this author that the alleged gas chambers at the inspected sites could not have then been, or now, be utilized or seriously considered to function as execution gas chambers.
Prepared this 5th day of April, 1988 at Malden, Massachusetts.
Fred Leuchter Associates
If anyone is interested just where holocaust denial can lead, just visit this site.
I’m surprised no one has cross posted the moon landing hoax - same basic idea.
I’m sure that all the crationists can be good Christian Scientists. We just need to monitor them.
Sorry I’m coming to this a little late.
While absolutely not wanting to take away the pain of those whose families were murdered, the Jewish nature of the holocaust is emphasised because the Jews were singled out as the target of the worst of Nazi oppression. Murdering the Jews was seen by Hitler as an almost messianic mission, and in every town the Nazis took over, it was the Jews who were immediately rounded up and either killed on the spot or deported immediately. To summarise, killing the Jews was not a strategic act to improve the German military position, but in some ways was the ultimate goal of the Nazis.
You certainly aren’t being a ‘Holocaust denier’ in any sense by talking about all of the victims of the war.
Again, there’s a big difference between saying that closer to 4 or 5 million Jews were probably murdered (although the figures that keep coming up are closer to 5.5 - 6.5 million), than saying that because the number is so high, it is a complete fabrication, and there were no Jews murdered by the Nazis, outside of normal military activity, and a few overzealous guards.
Daniel, I don’t mean to pick apart what you’ve said out of rudeness, it’s just that applying the term ‘Holocaust Denier’ to reasonable statements like your own (and then suggesting that there are people who would jump on you and use that term unreasonably), makes the suggestion that there are ‘reasonable’ forms of Holocaust denial, and ‘unreasonable’ people who believe the Holocaust occurred.
Just a little philosophizing (sp-I know that’s very poor) here…
Wouldn’t we all LOVE to actually be able to believe it really didn’t happen? Who wouldn’t want to find out it was all a mistake, and nobody suffered?
Unfortunately, we don’t have that priviledge. We can’t afford it.
It did happen…and we can never forget it did.
henry, there are those who are so rabid on this subject, that any thing out of total agreement with the “established history” gets you branded as “anti-semitic”- and I should know, as i have been called that for professing just those views. (I made a point once, that some % of the German non-Jewish pop died in the war, so it would be reasonable to assume that some similar % of Jews & such also died from indirect, non-nazi causes. This is not a huge #, and it does not weaken the overall truth- after all, FIVE million is just as bad as 6.) And, yes- I know the nazis hated the Jews most of all- but the killing of the Gypsies and gays was in no way for 'strategic military reasons", nor was the killing of my folks- IMHO.
But, in any case, let us just assume, for the sake or arguement (and i am not claiming this)- that it turned out the gas chambers were just delousing stations, or whatever. They killed few anyway (in comparison). It would not change the fact that millions of folks were starved to death in slave labor camps for no other reason that their religion & ethnicity. So, these 'deniers" are full of shit. The Nazis were evil bastards who killed millions of their very own folks, for racist reasons. No amount of “denying” will change that.
Actually, assuming that does change something – and this is exactly what the deniers do. They say the gas chambers were just delousing facilities and they admit that many Jews were indeed killed (ranging from several hundred thousand up to a couple million, depending on the denier) and say that it really was terrible.
But removal of the gas chambers allows them to say that the intent was not there for mass murder. Sure, many died, but not with the plan, the intent. It was just because there wasn’t enough food to go around, or illness struck, or whatever.
Well, there were also the mass machinegunnings. And the Wansea (sp) conference, but I guess some can never see the truth.
Below is a list of links to a few excellent resources on “holocaust denial”. Please look through the available information and decide for yourself what the truth is…
-Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust-
-CODOH Main Title Index-
CODOH Message Board
-Complete transcripts of the recent libel trial against Deborah Lipstadt by Mr. Irving-
-Institute for Historical Review-
-The Adelaide Institute-
-Germar Rudolf’s VHO-
P.S. Please do not cancel my post.
Of course, it might help if you have some information that supports the accepted historical view of the holocaust, before deciding for yourself what the truth is:
There’s also lots on this site about the techniques used by revisionists, such as insisting that they be debated, and then ignoring any debates with people who might show them up to be dishonest.
To quote the front page:
And even after previewing it twice, I managed to completely mess up that link - It should be The Nizkor Project.
I’m sorry that happened to you, but it’s an emotional subject for lots of people. Individuals don’t always speak for everyone who believes as they do.
The Germans had all sorts of reasons for killing people, none of them reasonable. However, a person could have been a German, blonde, blue eyed, athletic and knowledgable of the entire works of Wagner, Nietzsche and Hitler. If they had one grandparent who was Jewish, and they were found out, they were killed.
Hitler saw the war as a war between the Aryans, and the Jews, and in his paranoid fantasies, he believed that if the Aryans didn’t completely destroy the Jews, the reverse would be the case. In every country that the Germans invaded, those sympathetic to them in that country were put to work finding and killing the Jews (which they often did enthusiastically, fuelled by long standing hatreds). The final solution, which is something that the revisionists claim never existed, was to the ‘Jewish Problem’ - a project set into motion to destroy every Jew in the world. The Nazis definitely had plans to kill Christians as well, but the Jews were to be first.
As David B has said, this changes everything - it suggests that the Jews and others were put into camps to keep them under lock and key so they didn’t act in a treasonous manner against Germany - a reasonable fear if you’ve been listening to what the Fuhrer has been saying the past few years.
However, why do you occasionally meet people from Auschwitz or Buchenwald, but almost never from Treblinka? Because the former were concentration camps as well as death camps, but the latter was a highly effective and successful death camp. People were sent there to be killed, actively, by the specially designed gas chambers.
And this is the basis of the argument between revisionists and mainstream historians. Revisionists will pull out a document that says that a particular transport of Jews are not to be liquidated to prove that none of the transports were liquidated, where a reasonable person would read this as saying if a particular order needed to be made not to do something, then murder must have been normally a formality.