# Holy cow! Fox News rips into Swift Boat Veterans for Truth **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 22, 2004, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969 "2004-08-22T14:30:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969/81 "2004-08-24T14:31:52Z")
> [@](#): > > But the hypocracy of that one guy who got a Bronze star in one of the incidents where Kerry did- which medal included “under enemy fire”- later on saying “oh,there was no enemy fire”- then why did _HE_ accept HIS fucking medal? According to Thurlow, he thought he got the medal for saving the other boat and the men on it. He jumped on an out-of-control boat and was thrown off it when it hit a sandbar. Then he climbed back on and continued rescuing men and saving the boat. He didn’t get the citation for several months after he returned home from Vietnam, and according to him that was the first time he saw enemy fire mentioned, but he still thought the reason was his saving of the other boat. At least, that’s his story. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969/82 "2004-08-24T16:44:30Z")
I have a few questions:It has been reported that Kerry had one of his men photograph him with an 8-mm movie camera…how many of these movies were made? Do any survive? Was Kerry’s medal record unusual? He got (I believe 3 purple hearts, one silver star, one bronze star in a 4-month period. Is this unusual? The so-called swiftboat ads: have any of these guy’s claims been verified? It seems to me that combat operations in Vietnam were reasonably well recorded…what do the archives say about kerry being in Cambodia? :o ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969/83 "2004-08-24T17:14:23Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > It seems to me that combat operations in Vietnam were reasonably well recorded…what do the archives say about kerry being in Cambodia? :o It is my understanding that, during the time that John Kerry was in Southeast Asia, Cambodia was not considered to be a legitimate theatre of operations. Consequently, any troop incursions into Cambodian territory would likely not appear in any archived records. I await contradiction and instruction from anyone who can authoritatively provide it. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969/84 "2004-08-24T17:30:20Z")
Oh, what the hell. I guess now that the truth is out, there’s no longer any reason to hide. I too, was in Cambodia at the time, and I saw John Kerry there. He was wrestling alligators to save a village of children, and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969/85 "2004-08-24T19:26:50Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Oh, what the hell. I guess now that the truth is out, there’s no longer any reason to hide. I too, was in Cambodia at the time, and I saw John Kerry there. He was wrestling alligators to save a village of children, and I challenge anyone to prove me wrong. I call bullshit! I was there, running opium and condoms from Thailand to Saigon. I saw you and Kerry all right, **Lib** – but those weren’t [alligators](http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/herpetology/brittoncrocs/csp_amis.htm), they were [saltwater crocodiles](http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/natsci/herpetology/act-plan/cporo.htm), and Kerry was dragging them across the border into Vietnam before killing them – with his bare hands and a rusty can opener. Furthermore, the village of children he was saving were imperiled to begin with by _your_ dastardly attempts to subdivide their rice paddies for sale to condo developers. Deny that, if you will. I have proof, I tell you, proof positive! Here, look at these affidavits from my co-conspirators, Moe, Curly, and Shemp! ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969/86 "2004-08-24T19:44:30Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The so-called swiftboat ads: have any of these guy’s claims been verified? _Reader’s Digest summary:_ The claims by the Swift Bullshitters for Bush have been [thoroughly debunked](http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231) and [spanked six ways to Sunday.](http://www.eriposte.com/media/liars_inc/swiftboat.htm) The only people who still believe the Swifties are the [terminally clueless.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5198347&postcount=653) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969/87 "2004-08-24T19:45:52Z")
Bush has not condemned the **contents** of the ad. He’s condemned the format, which makes it clear that he **doesn’t** condemn the contents. It’s as if Clinton said, “I did not have vaginal or anal intercourse or hand jobs with that woman.” It’s as if Bush said, “I haven’t done any drugs in the last thirty years.” The whole point is that he **should** condemn the content of the ads, not the format, which isn’t an issue. He should say, “I think Kerry’s a flaming asshole, but these specific attacks against him are untrue, and I’ll have nothing to do with them.” Similarly, if [Moveon.org](http://Moveon.org) promotes ads that compare Bush to Hitler, I expect Kerry to specifically condemn their content. If George Soros finances a campaign of ads that say Bush spent his National Guard years running a cocaine cartel, I expect Kerry to specifically condemn their content. This is not a difficult distinction. If someone from a Straight Dope administration email address sent me an email calling me a childraper, I would expect the administration to reject the charge, not just say that the administration shouldn’t be sending me emails. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969/88 "2004-08-24T20:32:08Z")
Furthermore, Bush is condemning all such ads, attempting to set up a false equivalence between Bush ads and Kerry ads. If people actually start noticing the total BS in the SBVT ads, but then they hear something along the lines of “oh, yeah, all political parties make ads like that”, they won’t blame it on Bush. If anyone can come up with any evidence for an ad from, say, [moveon.org](http://moveon.org) which is even in the same league of dishonesty as SBVT, I’d like to see it. But Bush condemns ALL such ads. How big of him. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969/89 "2004-08-24T20:49:02Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > If anyone can come up with any evidence for an ad from, say, [moveon.org](http://moveon.org) which is even in the same league of dishonesty as SBVT, I’d like to see it. But Bush condemns ALL such ads. How big of him. With the DNC being before the RNC, doesn’t it also make strategic sense for Bush to lament the existance of soft money ads? -Joe, still thinks Rove should have been put in charge of Iraq ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969/90 "2004-08-24T21:32:25Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Bush has not condemned the **contents** of the ad. He’s condemned the format, which makes it clear that he **doesn’t** condemn the contents. It’s as if Clinton said, “I did not have vaginal or anal intercourse or hand jobs with that woman.” It’s as if Bush said, “I haven’t done any drugs in the last thirty years.” Ummm…look, I can’t stand Bush either, but (from **Brutus** ’ link above: > [@](#): > > Bush, asked directly whether his Democratic rival for the presidency had lied, said, “I think Senator Kerry served admirably and he ought to be proud of his record.” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969/91 "2004-08-24T21:52:56Z")
In other words… Bush, asked directly whether his Democratic rival for the presidency had lied, declined to provide a direct answer to the question. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2004, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969/92 "2004-08-24T22:01:22Z")
Is it entirely too partisan to notice than when the Pubbies had twice as much money as the Dumbocrats, there wasn’t any kind of problem, every thing was pretty much hunky-dory? But now there is great weeping and gnashing of teeth because those dreadful Dems have spent millions of bucks attacking GeeBubbya (Praise the Leader!). ---
**Author:** ![Chata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Chata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chata)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969/93 "2004-08-25T00:43:36Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > How have Fox’s ratings been doing lately? Because if they figure that attacking Republicans will get them a larger share, then by God they’ll attack Republicans. Murdoch didn’t get to be that rich by being an idealist. Gawd, I hope this is IT! ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969/94 "2004-08-25T04:05:37Z")
[Fox’s ratings rise despite recent harsh criticism](http://www.usatoday.com/life/columnist/mediamix/2004-07-25-media-mix_x.htm) > [@](#): > > Recent attacks on Fox News Channel by liberals — most notably by the documentary Outfoxed — have actually helped ratings, according to the network. > Fox’s total viewer numbers are up 13% since July 8 over the same period last year; CNN is up 1%, with MSNBC down 9%. Fox is _killing_ the competition. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969/95 "2004-08-25T04:12:27Z")
Hell, **Sam** I watch _Fox News_ all the time. 'Cause I’m not looking for news, already got the news. Want to see how the Forces of Darkness will spin the news. CNN: Videotape reveals Kerry walking on water! FOX: Kerry can’t swim! ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969/96 "2004-08-25T10:29:35Z")
Alternatively… Fox: Kerry’s Cambodia claim cannot be verified CNN: _crickets chirping_ ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969/97 "2004-08-25T19:50:55Z")
Since when were news organizations supposed to report on _unverified_ stuff? “Next on Fox News – Homeless man in Central Park makes unverified claims that John Kerry is actually a lizard man from the planet Xufuglus.” ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969/98 "2004-08-25T20:03:27Z")
> [@Rjung](#): > > Since when were news organizations supposed to report on unverified stuff? Since day before yesterday. CNN finally said something about it. [http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/23/kerry.record.tm/](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/23/kerry.record.tm/) > [@](#): > > THE CHARGE Kerry lied about spending Christmas Eve 1968 in Cambodia. In 1979 and 1986, Kerry recounted a mission in which he and his crew boated into neutral Cambodia. The Pentagon said at the time that Vietnam’s neighbor was off limits, and Kerry said his mission was proof of Richard Nixon’s dishonesty. Steven Gardner, the sole member of Kerry’s crew to join the SBVT, says their boat was 50 miles from the Cambodian border that day. > > THE EVIDENCE Kerry has no proof he entered Cambodia, though other U.S. forces certainly did. Two crew members have said the boat was near the border. Records show that the boat was about 50 miles south of Cambodia that morning. Kerry and his crew headed upriver and could have been at the border in two hours. On Christmas Eve, Nixon was President-elect; he would not be in the White House for a month. A Kerry campaign spokesman now says that Kerry might not have been in Cambodia that night but that he definitely went there on a mission. ---
**Author:** ![Ace\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Ace\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace_Face)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969/99 "2004-08-25T20:55:40Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Alternatively… > Fox: Kerry’s Cambodia claim cannot be verified > > CNN: _crickets chirping_ I think the responsible way to handle unverified, potentially slanderous charges is to wait and gather more evidence. Here CNN has performed a valuable service. Earlier you implied it was outlandish for Kerry to make this claim of being in Cambodia (hahaha, the same as if YOU made such a claim) – perhaps you’re unaware our good friend Mr. O’Neill has made a similar [assertion](http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_08_22.php#003333) : > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, John O’Neill – Mr. uber-Swift, he wrote the book, etc. – has been going on all the shows for weeks saying > that John Kerry never could have been in Cambodia on a black mission. It was impossible because there were all sorts of precautions in place to prevent any border crossings and that he would have been “court-martialed” had he done so (see this column for excerpts from his book and his appearance on ABC’s This Week program last Sunday.) > > Now CNN has come up with tapes of O’Neill telling Richard Nixon in 1971 that he himself had been on missions inside Cambodia. From last night’s Aaron Brown show … > > O’Neill said no one could cross the border by river and he claimed in an audio tape that his publicist played to CNN that he, himself, had never been to Cambodia either. But in 1971, O’Neill said precisely the opposite to then President Richard Nixon. > O’NEILL: I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border on the water. > > NIXON: In a swift boat? > > O’NEILL: Yes, sir. > > (END VIDEOTAPE) > > JOHNS: Now, O’Neill may have an explanation for this but he has not returned CNN’s calls. What does seem clear is that a top member of the swift boat group is now being held to the same standard of literal accuracy they’ve tried to impose on John Kerry – Aaron. Has Fox reported this? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969/100 "2004-08-25T21:30:29Z")
O’Neill is a sleazebag. As I said earlier (and have said often in these Demublican versus Republicrat pissing contests), both sides are full of shit. Has Fox aired the CNN exclusive that broadcast late last night just before midnight? Obviously not. Mary Beth Cahill called Joe Johns, not John Gibson. But on Fox’s front page, prominent top left, is a whole box of Anti-SBVT stuff: ‘Put Up or Shut Up’ Former Ga. Sen. Max Cleland urges Bush to condemn swift boat ads critical of Kerry • Letter to Bush (pdf) Related Stories •Lawyer Quits Bush Campaign •Raw Data: Ginsberg’s LetterVideo Incidentally, here’s the transcript from Sunday’s show: [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,129590,00.html](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,129590,00.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-fox-news-rips-into-swift-boat-veterans-for-truth/260969.md?page=6)