# Holy Cow! Or Xenu. Whatever. CHRISTIAN SCIENTOLOGISTS? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 31, 2007, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794 "2007-10-31T22:26:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794/81 "2007-11-01T21:11:30Z")
Perhaps people should go back and read the whole story again and ask themselves, 'How did CNN get this story, and why?" The obvious danger, _as was stated in the article_, was not the broad teachings in that missive-it is that the COS is using this as an example that Scientology and Christianity are perfectly compatible with each other. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794/82 "2007-11-01T21:29:52Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] Perhaps people should go back and read the whole story again and ask themselves, 'How did CNN get this story, and why?" The obvious danger, _as was stated in the article_, was not the broad teachings in that missive-it is that the COS is using this as an example that Scientology and Christianity are perfectly compatible with each other. [/QUOTE] Help me out. I’m not quite seeing the COS using this as an example that Scientology and Christianity are perfectly compatible with each other in that article. I see a critic of the COS kind of saying that, but I don’t see the COS claiming that. I see a CNN writer trying hard to make that connection. I also find the article’s title “Some Christian pastors embrace Scientology” as, at best, inaccurate and, at worst, deliberately misleading. The pastor is not “embracing” Scientology any more than a priest is “embracing” Hollywood for using a movie or commercial in his sermons to help explain the tenets of Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![sugar\_and\_spice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@sugar\_and\_spice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugar_and_spice)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794/83 "2007-11-01T21:35:51Z")
nevermind, ditto pulykamell ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794/84 "2007-11-01T22:01:35Z")
[QUOTE=pulykamell] I am struggling, really struggling, to understand your moral outrage here. [/QUOTE] If you could point it out for me, perhaps I could help you understand. [QUOTE=sugar and spice] If I am consistent in how I use my new jargon, then it is not “infinitely variable”, just non-standard. [/QUOTE] Yeah. That’s what I said. I think you must not be paying attention to the quotes I am responding to when you respond to my quotes. Could you try a little harder? > [@](#): > > I was referring to the single sentence in your first post But you said thread. Not post. Another of your special definitions? You see how that can get confusing? > [@](#): > > – you come off as pretty arrogant declaring them to be clearly not Christians with a wave of the hand. Now I know you are not paying attention. Show me exactly where in that post I made that declaration. [QUOTE=jsgoddesss] You mean like a Jehovah’s Witness and a Catholic? [/QUOTE] How are they mutually exclusive? [QUOTE=Jodi] I fail to see why this would follow. Let’s say you’ve got a person who claims to be a Christian who affirms the divinity of Christ like, say, a Baptist. He or she says you must believe in the divinity of Christ to be Christian. Then you’ve got another person claims to be Christian who disavows the divinity of Christ like, say, a Mormon. It’s true that their personal definitions of “Christian” are to that extent conflicting, but I fail to see why that renders the term “meaningless”. [/QUOTE] The other option is that one of them is wrong. It’s right there in the post you quoted. Can they both be right? > [@](#): > > “If you can’t define with great specificity and very clear borders what it means to be Christian, then it doesn’t mean anything” – this is one of those pendantic arguments that never go anywhere. Are you talking to me? Can you point out where I have said anything remotely like that? What I have said, over and over, is that if your definition has absolutely _no specificity or borders whatsoever_, then it is meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794/85 "2007-11-01T22:09:10Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] No, the term isn’t entirely without meaning, but it is very incomplete and fluid. That’s why I’m happy to let people categorize themselves especially since it doesn’t matter what people call themselves. [/quote] Fair enough. But if somebody actually claims to be two things that exclude each other, like ‘Christian’ and ‘Scientologist’ appear to, I’d hesitate and want more information before I accept that they’re describing themselves accurately. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794/86 "2007-11-01T22:14:44Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] Fair enough. But if somebody actually claims to be two things that exclude each other, like ‘Christian’ and ‘Scientologist’ appear to, I’d hesitate and want more information before I accept that they’re describing themselves accurately. [/QUOTE] Okay, but what would you consider enough information? I can’t think of anything they could say that would tip me from “You’re not a Christian!” to “You are! You are!” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794/87 "2007-11-01T22:20:13Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] If you could point it out for me, perhaps I could help you understand. [/QUOTE] I have, several times, quoted you various times in this thread, asking you to clarify your position. Let’s start with this, then (I’ve already asked you in post #74. Let’s try again, shall we?) Where does it say, in the CNN article, that Scientologists can be Christians or that Christians can be Scientologists. That appears to be what you’re pitting in the OP. If not, please clarify what exactly it is you are pitting, because it’s completely lost on me. _The priest in the article itself says that Scientology is not always compatible with Christianity._ ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794/88 "2007-11-01T22:28:33Z")
I mean, for fuck’s sake, here’s the quote from the pastor: > [@](#): > > When asked whether Scientology’s values contradict the religion of Jesus Christ, Kennedy replies, “Sometimes yes. Sometimes no.” Nowhere, and I mean nowhere does it say Christianity and Scientology are completely compatible. Nowhere does it say one can be both a Christian and a Scientologist. The OP is one big strawman. There’s plenty of reasons to hate Scientology. There’s plenty of valid criticism against them. The article linked in the OP is, as I’ve stated before, not what I would call a disinterested account of what is going on. It’s one hack of an article, I’d go so far as to call it irresponsible journalism for the headline alone. ---
**Author:** ![Reloy3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c68b51/32.png) [@Reloy3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reloy3)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794/89 "2007-11-01T22:30:52Z")
Great discussion, but I can’t let this pass - [QUOTE=Jodi] Then you’ve got another person claims to be Christian who disavows the divinity of Christ like, say, a Mormon. [/QUOTE] In what universe does the average active member of the LDS Church (“Mormon”) disavow the divinity of CHrist? In all my years of active Mormon Church membership, including local leadership positions throughout the country, I have only taught and been taught that the divinity of Christ is a central tenant, if not the central tenant of Mormonism. Sorry for the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794/90 "2007-11-01T22:32:49Z")
[QUOTE=pulykamell] I have, many times, quoted you various times in this thread, asking you to clarify your position. [/QUOTE] What I am asking you to point out is my moral outrage. Asking me to clarify my position is not pointing out moral outrage. Pointing to a direct quote, and building a case for that being moral outrage, is pointing out moral outrage. > [@](#): > > Let’s start with this, then (I’ve already asked you in post #74. Let’s try again, shall we?) > > Where does it say, in the CNN article, that Scientologists can be Christians or that Christians can be Scientologists. Are you saying they can’t? > [@](#): > > That appears to be what you’re pitting in the OP. If not, please clarify what exactly it is you are pitting, because it’s completely lost on me. Strange bedfellows, I suppose. Christians taking moral guidance from a cult that claims that Christ was imaginary. Or a pedophile. And that an alien overlord transported what would become human souls to Earth 75 million years ago. In DC-8’s. What is lacking in Christian doctrine that causes such a need? Why make a deal with the devil? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794/91 "2007-11-01T22:40:37Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] What I am asking you to point out is my moral outrage. [/quote] The fact that you pitted this to me suggests some sort of outrage on your part. The fact that is a subject involving religion and morality suggested to me that terming it “moral outrage” would be accurate. If you prefer for me to call it “spiritual outrage,” “religious outrage,” or just run-of-the-mill standard Pit outrage, so be it. I’m not here to argue semantics with you. > [@](#): > > Are you saying they can’t? If you would have bothered to read any of my posts, you would know the answer to this question. Hint: re-read post #74. If it’s still not clear, let me state succinctly: one cannot be both a devout Scientologist and Christian, as there are conflicting core beliefs in the two cults/religions/whatevertheheck. Nor does the article in the OP claim that. > [@](#): > > Strange bedfellows, I suppose. Christians taking moral guidance from a cult that claims that Christ was imaginary. Or a pedophile. And that an alien overlord transported what would become human souls to Earth 75 million years ago. In DC-8’s. What is lacking in Christian doctrine that causes such a need? Why make a deal with the devil? The guidance is coming from a secular non-religious book that mentions none of that. The guidance is sound. The guidance is, in my opinion, Christian. Once again, and I’ve repeated this point to death, the book itself is compatible with Christian teachings. If you don’t think so, please point out any part of the book you feel is un-Christian or dangerous to Christians. The book itself may come from the Evil Scientologists, but the advice therein, is not objectionable, in my opinion. And, lastly, have you even looked at the book to form an opinion about it? ---
**Author:** ![sugar\_and\_spice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@sugar\_and\_spice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugar_and_spice)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794/92 "2007-11-01T22:50:13Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] But you said thread. Not post. Another of your special definitions? You see how that can get confusing? [/QUOTE] I was clarifying myself, in response to your confusion in #65 > [@](#): > > [QUOTE=sugar and spice] > – you come off as pretty arrogant declaring them to be clearly not Christians with a wave of the hand. Now I know you are not paying attention. Show me exactly where in that post I made that declaration. [/QUOTE] You cited Kimstu (#6) as the “straight version” of your OP. [QUOTE=Kimstu] Where’d this come from? I didn’t realize there was anything “judgmental” about finding it contradictory for a Christian to espouse Scientology. I mean, they’ve got like, extremely different theological belief systems and all. If a Christian pastor adopted a Muslim theology that ranked Jesus, Muhammad and Moses together as merely mortal prophets (with Muhammad the most important), but claimed still to be a believing Christian, I’d think that was weird too. Am I a “judgmental jackass”? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Contrapuntal] That was ironical. But how about you answer **Kimstu**? He gave the straight version. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794/93 "2007-11-01T22:50:59Z")
[QUOTE=Ferret Herder] **fetus** , seriously, Scientology is incompatible with Christianity. Hubbard said [Christ was a pedophile](http://www.ami.com.au/~bradw/cos/) (scroll about halfway down) [/QUOTE] Well, it’s true that Jesus said, _“Let the little children come on me…”_ But seriously, there’s a rumor that L. Ron Hubbard [might have been sexually molested](http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=16702) as a child, which would explain his comments about Jesus Christ as a form of projection bias. There’s also rumors that Hubbard himself was a child molester, although my only available cite is that infamous South Park episode (as well as several chapters in his _Mission Earth_ series that graphically described small boys being fucked up the ass…no, I’m not making up that last part!) ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794/94 "2007-11-01T22:52:54Z")
[QUOTE=pulykamell] The fact that you pitted this to me suggests some sort of outrage on your part. The fact that is a subject involving religion and morality suggested to me that terming it “moral outrage” would be accurate. If you prefer for me to call it “spiritual outrage,” “religious outrage,” or just run-of-the-mill standard Pit outrage, so be it. I’m not here to argue semantics with you. [/QUOTE] I’m not outraged at all. A little confused, a little amused, a little bemused, a little what the fuck. > [@](#): > > If you would have bothered to read any of my posts, you would know the answer to this question. Hint: re-read post #74. I see where you say that the article doesn’t say that they can. Not saying they can is not the same as saying they can’t, and pointing to what an article says is not the same as saying what you believe. > [@](#): > > If it’s still not clear, let me state succinctly: one cannot be both a devout Scientologist and Christian, as there are conflicting core beliefs in the two cults/religions/whatevertheheck. Cool. We have finally drawn a bit of a bead, no matter how shaky, on a definition of a Christian : Among other unspecified things, _not a Scientologist_. I concur. > [@](#): > > The guidance is coming from a secular non-religious book that mentions none of that. The guidance is sound. The guidance is, in my opinion, Christian. Once again, and I’ve repeated this point to death, the book itself is compatible with Christian teachings. If you don’t think so, please point out any part of the book you feel is un-Christian or dangerous to Christians. The book itself may come from the Evil Scientologists, but the advice therein, is not objectionable, in my opinion. I imagine Idi Amin stumbled upon an acorn of wisdom every now and then. Doesn’t make going around quoting him a good idea. Why do they need to go to Scientologists for anything? Except to straighten them out about that whole “Christ was a pedophile” thing? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794/95 "2007-11-01T22:58:33Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Not saying they can is not the same as saying they can’t [/quote] :smack: Again: > [@](#): > > When asked whether Scientology’s values contradict the religion of Jesus Christ, Kennedy replies, “Sometimes yes. Sometimes no.” So, yeah, the article says that the priest himself, who is using the materials for his Christian teachings, thinks that Scientology contradicts Christianity at times. Which is accurate. Some of Scientology is compatible with Christianity. Some is not. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794/96 "2007-11-01T23:08:19Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Why do they need to go to Scientologists for anything? [/QUOTE] They don’t need to. I don’t think anybody is saying that. At least I’m not. But if the Scientologists happen to have a good book of moral principles that a priest finds is working well with his congregation, and that book is not in contradiction to Christian principles nor is pushing any Scientology beliefs, he might as well use it to reinforce Christian beliefs. That appears to be what is happening here. Hell, leafing through that book, I would say that everyone should follow the principles within. It’d be a much better world, no matter who is plugging the book. Hell, if Idi Amin wrote that book, I’d tell people, yeah, Idi Amin was a crazy murderous bastard, but this book is actually pretty sound moral advice–too bad Idi didn’t follow it. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794/97 "2007-11-01T23:32:22Z")
[QUOTE=pulykamell] They don’t need to. I don’t think anybody is saying that. At least I’m not. But if the Scientologists happen to have a good book of moral principles that a priest finds is working well with his congregation, and that book is not in contradiction to Christian principles nor is pushing any Scientology beliefs, he might as well use it to reinforce Christian beliefs. That appears to be what is happening here. [/QUOTE] Here’s the problem. Scientology is insidious. It is an extremely powerful cult that essentially brainwashes people under the guise of religion. Undoubtedly it is capable of presenting sound moral values in easy to read pamphlet form. But the devil can quote Scripture, eh? Still, one needs to treat everything out of his mouth as blasphemy. Or so I’ve been told. For another religion to justify Scientology, even tacitly, by accepting it’s teachings sets a very dangerous precedent. _Especially when there is no need_. You said yourself, everything in that book is sound Christian doctrine. What’s the point? Here’s another problem. In my experience, many congregations such as are represented in the link rely heavily on their pastor for guidance. If he gives his stamp of approval, then Scientology already has a foot in the door. So what if they claim not to have lost any members? Scientology can afford to wait. They are as rich as hell, and specialize in the long con. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794/98 "2007-11-01T23:56:11Z")
_Disclaimer: I’ve only read the first half of the first page of the thread, but I do have thoughts to share on Scientology and the article quoted in OP_ I do what I can to be informed about Scientology, and have had that approach since I was quite young and they purchased some land near my rural hometown and proceeded to build a large complex and archive/bunker there. I am not a follower or a fan of any kind, and I never have been. I’m very wary of the organization. A couple of weeks ago, while browsing a trough of used dvds at my local Rasputin Music, I came upon a copy of [_Introduction to Scientology_](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0273687/) for $2. Why not? Know thine object of wariness, I always say. A day or so later I decided to pop in the disk and see what Mr. Hubbard had to say in this “one and only interview”. I didn’t really find anything in the content that I didn’t already know about Scientology in general. I did discover that, imho, Hubbard was quite repulsive physically, that he is awful in front of the camera, and as such was an extremely poor choice of subject for an interview that was presumably made with the intent to attract people further into the fold. Getting to the CNN article… I have no cites to support any “new” or “recent” spikes in the frequency of other established religions using Scientology, but Hubbard certainly brags about such things a good bit during the 1966 interview. For my fellow Dopers, I would be willing to endure trying to find the relevant statements on the disk and transcribe them here…but only for y’all. If I include a note promising upon pain of death that my intentions were not to recruit, is the dvd fair game for the White Elephant exchange? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2007, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794/99 "2007-11-02T00:11:34Z")
I do not like that an established Christian church is lending credence to anything, no matter if it follows Christian tenents or not, as base as CoS. Most of the things on that list can be found in the 10 Commandments. Nothing is stopping the pastor from paraphrasing the 10 commandments to make them more understandable to his congregation. He does not have to use this source. CoS is a crock. I don’t care if it shares some of the same moral principles that other belief systems do. I cannot believe that it does so without malice of some kind. IOW, I do not trust the teachings of CoS. To quote it in church is to give a credibility that is undeserved. **Cookies** –Hell, use it as a frisbee or a coaster. It’s fair game. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2007, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794/100 "2007-11-02T00:50:12Z")
FWIW, Anderson Cooper 360 is doing this story at ten tonight EDT. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-cow-or-xenu-whatever-christian-scientologists/424794.md?page=6)