# Holy Fuck, Illuminatiprimus! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 17, 2008, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100 "2008-11-17T05:49:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2008, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100/61 "2008-11-18T23:56:21Z")
> [@wolfstu](#): > > 1. No, I don’t think you know when to be ashamed. The time to be ashamed is after realising that you’ve insisted that your social discomfort is justification for a rule that forces people to live secretive, hidden lives, fearful of blackmail and social isolation (if not violence). That, or not join the military. > > 2. I’ve got the good sense not to lean over and drool on every handsome boy on the seashore. > > 3. So in the shower, where, like in every social setting, there are social cues and mores to govern conventional behaviour, _I know how not to make people uncomfortable_. And if you’re good-looking, I just very well might notice it, and keep that to myself as appropriate. > > 4. If your cue to be ashamed is knowing that a gay guy is around, and therefore must be staring at your irresistable man-package, you need a new cue. Gay guys are checking you out on the street, too. No more than they do anywhere else, and no more than you check out the girls. > > 5. I know what it’s like to be uncomfortable in the shower. I was shy when I was young; I’d been taught to keep my private parts private. And I also know the discomfort that comes out of the fear that someone in that shower room might find out that you’re gay. Not even find out, just have the slightest reason to accuse. And then what? Trust me, I know the discomfort – the terror – of knowing how insecure straight boys feel about queers, and knowing how hard the shower wall would feel against my skull. I won’t tell you just what happened to my friend from flight training (straight, as it turns out) who got a hard-on in the shower once. > > 6. But to say that your self-conscious discomfort is worth the terror of my youth. > > 7. “Don’t ask, don’t tell” protects you from reality – gay men are already there, and maybe one of them has glanced at you. Meanwhile, it opens a whole class of people up to blackmail, fear, and ruined careers. > > 8. If you can grow some balls about being glanced at, that whole class of people can stop living in fear. Heavily clipped, and numbered. Seeing as how the hijack is permanent now, I figure I might as well respond as there’s no hope of talking about the libel now. 1. Oh noes! That or not join the military?! How tragic that you can’t join the military! I guess you’ll have to go sulk with all those flat-footed people that couldn’t join. Or those that has asthma at 8 years old and haven’t had it since. Perhaps you can seek comfort in those with excema. Or the too short/tall. Joining is a choice. No one is born into it. Quit acting like it’s so tragic for someone to not be able to join. 2. I don’t care if you drool all over yourself. That doesn’t violate my body. Seeing me naked is sexual gratification that no one is entitled to besides those I choose to be. 3. Fine! Keep it to yourself! That’s what I’d prefer. Good thing we have DADT so we can enforce it instead of relying on your social skills. 4. They’re not checking me out naked on the street. Or the beach. Or the bus. It’s why I wear clothes outside my house. See me clothed=fine. See me naked=not fine. Why is that so hard to grasp? 5&6. Terror of your youth? What does your youth have to do with your optional military career? If you’re so terrified of not being found out, then don’t sign up! I can’t see why you think that throwing out the policy would change any terror of being beaten up. If anything, the “Don’t Ask” part is helpful to you. It’s your protection. Serve openly and you’re even more at risk. 1. Blackmail, fear, and ruined careers? How so? DADT can’t get you fired from being an accountant. Oh, you meant military careers that you chose to have? Why should I pity your decision again? If you followed the rules, there would be no blackmail or fear. It’s like arguing that extortion should be legalized becaues it makes extortionists vulnerable to blackmail or fear. 2. Ain’t my problem. Shouldn’t have enlisted. Here’s your options. A) Join and take the risk of hide your orientation, B) Don’t join and wait for the policy to be changed. If you choose A, you know what you’re getting into. Any fear of a ruined career is your own fault. Any fear of being beaten up or killed or whatever has nothing to do with the policy and is irrelevant. It’s illegal to beat you up regardless of DADT. You don’t just wake up one morning and go “Oops, I’m in the military!” It’s a choice you’re responsible for. Don’t expect me to pity your bad decision because now you’re afraid. Furthermore, if you check me out naked without my permission, you’re violating me. It’s not that I’m afraid you _might_ violate me, it’s that you _are_ violating me by the very act of looking at me desirously. It’s the same as if I went up to you on the street and pantsed you or if I lifted a woman’s skirt. The only way to prevent that is to keep you from seeing me naked. Since that’s not practical, the next best thing is to keep me from knowing about it. That solves all the problems. Not partially, but totally. If you still check me out, then it’s still a violation of my body but at least I’ll never know about it and so no damage is done. What’s not to get here? ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100/62 "2008-11-19T00:06:53Z")
Maybe you really are all that **Chessic Sense** , but I find the assumption that gay guys will be staring at you with desire and drooling to be A. a huge assumption on your part, B. very narcissistic and C. somewhat amusing. Why is it that straight guys all assume this? ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100/63 "2008-11-19T00:41:18Z")
When I say “you” to **wolfstu** , I mean all gays and lesbians. When I say “me”, I mean all straight servicemembers. And in the context of this discussion, it’s a given that we’re talking about a situation where there _is_ attraction. So of course not every gay soldier would like _me_ me. But I’m sure there’s a soldier out there somewhere that tickles his fancy, and that’s what we’re talking about. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100/64 "2008-11-19T00:43:47Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > When I say “you” to **wolfstu** , I mean all gays and lesbians. When I say “me”, I mean all straight servicemembers. And in the context of this discussion, it’s a given that we’re talking about a situation where there _is_ attraction. So of course not every gay soldier would like _me_ me. But I’m sure there’s a soldier out there somewhere that tickles his fancy, and that’s what we’re talking about. Sheesh. Ahh, didn’t realize you were speaking that broadly. It still amuses me though. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100/65 "2008-11-19T01:44:38Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > From what I understand, something like 97% of military facilities are equipped with private showers. Not in basic training nor AIT. In fact, at my unit , nope. Public showers, all. If you’re a single guy living in the barracks, you’re showering with other dudes. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100/66 "2008-11-19T01:51:01Z")
> [@Chessic Sense](#): > > 1. Oh noes! That or not join the military?! How tragic that you can’t join the military! I guess you’ll have to go sulk with all those flat-footed people that couldn’t join. Or those that has asthma at 8 years old and haven’t had it since. Perhaps you can seek comfort in those with excema. Or the too short/tall. Joining is a choice. No one is born into it. Quit acting like it’s so tragic for someone to not be able to join. Since you’re the guy whose sphincter puckers up at the thought of (gasp!) being seen naked by a gay guy, maybe _you’re_ the one who shouldn’t be in the military. It’s your problem, after all. Why make someone else deal with the consequences of it? ---
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100/67 "2008-11-19T06:05:37Z")
When I enrolled as an officer, I went through a pretty comprehensive selection process that included, among other things, an interview. They asked me a whole series of questions including this one: Would I be comfortable working with, and taking orders from, homosexuals? It came with a set of scenarios where I explained my response; one of my subordinates comes out; my CO is gay. And of course, it was a relevant question. A leader who cannot accept the people he’s tasked to command or to serve, or the members of the society he’s tasked to defend, cannot be an effective leader. The armed forces, to be effective, must draw from the whole of the society of which it is part, and which it must defend and serve. Where some sub-group of that society – a linguistic minority, a racial minority, or otherwise – feels excluded from it, and sees it as made up of people who are ‘the others’, no sense of ownership and identification can exist, and a rift develops between the society’s people and its most obvious symbol of power. And an official government policy which excludes some group alienates a segment of the society which that government, and its armed forces, exist _solely_ to serve. Meanwhile, the soldier (gay or otherwise) in a unit needs confidence that his leadership will lead justly, wisely, and with that soldier’s interest in mind. And needs to be comfortable in his unit, which is a community of which he must become an effective, integral, and a seamless part, able to work as his best, together with his comrades. A solider who’s forced to keep a secret, or who feels his leadership won’t stand up for him they way they would for his comrades, cannot feel part of that unit completely; cannot help but feel the outsider. This reduces his effectiveness, and that of the unit. At the same time, the act of constantly keeping onself shuttered, not opening up and forming personal bonds with one’s comrades for fear they may get to know one too well, is both counterproductive for the unit and bad for the individual’s mental health. Military jobs are stressful enough without having to live a lie. And we can’t solve the problem by barring gays from the military, either. We need them, because we _are_ them. They _are_ a part of that society that we serve, that we defend, and who we are simply the regimented, uniformed part of. And plus, the armed forces need competent, qualified people, and we’re always looking for the dedicated, willing staff that can do our work. Turning them away for any arbitrary reason is counterproductive to effectiveness, counterproductive to the the military’s identification with the society it serves, and discriminatory to citizens – whose equality before the law is one of the fundamental principles we serve, as oath-bound agents of a democratic government. So with that understood, **Chessic Sense** , I will now answer this question, which you found unable to ask without mocking my earlier post: > [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Oh noes! That or not join the military?! How tragic that you can’t join the military! I guess you’ll have to go sulk with all those flat-footed people that couldn’t join. Or those that has asthma at 8 years old and haven’t had it since. Perhaps you can seek comfort in those with excema. Or the too short/tall. Joining is a choice. No one is born into it. Quit acting like it’s so tragic for someone to not be able to join. Why should it be a problem that I can’t join the military? From the military’s point of view, it’s inappropriate and counterproductive for all the reasons I’ve listed above. And from my point of view, well. Why did _you_, personally, join the military? Whatever it was that made you want to, why should you be arbitrarily denied that? There’d better be a good reason, I’d say. And there are legitimate reasons, like being medically or physically or mentally unable to do the job. But being gay is no hindrance to performance in a military job. For me, personally? I joined because I like what I do, I believe in what I do, and I think I can do it well. And it’s had tremendous benefits for me, in the training, experiences, and opportunties I’ve had as a result. My membership in my country’s armed forces, and related organizations, have in large part made me who I am today. And in practical terms, it pays my salary, it paid for my flight instructror’s rating, and it’s paying for my master’s degree in physics. If I lived in your country, I’d have lost out on all those opportunities. Are you saying I shouldn’t have those chances because you can’t stand the thought I might see your ass in a shower room one day? Are you saying my country’s military academy shouldn’t have had their first pick of a top-class graduate student with space agency experience to design and manage their satellite program because some guy isn’t comfortable with my sexuality? I’m not an invalid or a threat to security or incapable of doing my job. No arbitary policy should keep me from doing it, or instead force me to live secretively and without making close friendships for fear of discovery. And neither should my skills be off-limits to the military that has need of them. Nor should I be unavailable to help those under my command who are gay and could use confident, supportive leadership, instead of legislated isolation. “Oh noes!” indeed. “Joining is a choice”, and I should have that choice as freely as anyone else in my society capable of doing the job. Freely, I said, not with some caveat to hide the nature of my personal relationships. Fortunately, I live in a society where I have that freedom, and I, the armed forces, and my society are all the better for it. Now for the rest of it: > [@](#): > > I don’t care if you drool all over yourself. That doesn’t violate my body. The mere presence of a naked man, whatever his sexual proclivities, in a room where people are _supposed_ to be naked for purely functional reasons does not, and can not possibly, constitute harassment, assault, or any other kind of ‘violation of the body’. That such a man _sees_ the other men in the same room can be no offence either. > [@](#): > > Seeing me naked is sexual gratification… No, it’s not. Not because you’re unsexy, but because seeing you naked does not, in and of itself, have anything to do with sex. Physicians may well be in a situation to see you naked, and there’s nothing sexual about a medical exam. Or are we supposed to keep the queers out of medical school, too? Seeing you naked is a direct consequence of those situations where nakedness is needed for one reason or other. > [@](#): > > Any fear of being beaten up or killed or whatever has nothing to do with the policy and is irrelevant. Oh, but it does. Say a bunch of your buddies who can’t stand the thought of a gay guy having a chance to see their asses decide to beat me up in the shower room when nobody else is around. Bruised and bloody, I go the the military police, and what are they going to ask? You can bet at some point the investigation will look into the motivation for the assault. “That fucking fag was looking at me, sizing me up, winking at me in the shower.” Even if that’s all a lie, now I’m beaten up _and_ under homo-suspicion. And my boss, who must to take disciplinary action against me if he comes to know I’m gay, isn’t exactly going to want to race to my defence, will he? Contrast that with the case of a military force like mine, where the leadership is on side with making every member count, and defending the place of gays within the armed forces, as equal citizens and valuable people. Now my boss can openly defend me, and the broader leadership can take steps to promote aceptance within the ranks, to work against this kind of violence happening in the first place. A leadership whose official policy is that gays are unwelcome, and must hide themselves or face expulsion and ruin, is not sending any kind of positive signal to the troops. A leadership that insists on standing up for diversity and inclusion, for valuing personnel based on their abilities rather than un-job-related characteristics, is a powerful tool for influencing bahaviour and culture in the ranks. And I’m fortunate to belong to a competent, effective military force that does just this. In your country, I’d be so much trash to toss out of the recruiting office lest I offend someone’s puritan sensibilities. > [@](#): > > It’s illegal to beat you up regardless of DADT. And sexual harassment is illegal too, so what are you worried about? > [@](#): > > Furthermore, if you check me out naked without my permission, you’re violating me. It’s not that I’m afraid you might violate me, it’s that you are violating me by the very act of looking at me desirously. It’s the same as if I went up to you on the street and pantsed you or if I lifted a woman’s skirt. What do you think I am, a tumescent ram randily sizing up a ewe? It is possible for me to see an attractive man without staring at him with discomforting lust. As I pointed out the first time, ‘lascivious staring’ can certainly constitute harassment, and we have laws against that. A jackass who stares at you to the point of making you uncomfortable is comitting an offence that you can certainly take as a ‘violation’. A man who merely perceives your presence with his eyes commits no such offence. Keeping all the gays out of the armed forces on the fear that one of them might commit harassment is obvious overkill. You might as well kick all the men out of the military to protect the women from harassment. On the other hand, if you are so sensitive about your nudity that the mere thought that someone who thinks you’re good-looking might see your butt causes you crippling embarrassment, maybe you’re not cut out for a job where people have to shower together. You know there are some queers in the military, and you know that by now one of them has been in the shower at the same time as you, but you feel better because you don’t know which _particular_ guy it was? First, how the heck does that make anything better, and second, why should the military write its rules to suit your Heisenberg-principle neurosis? So in my armed forces, the ‘options’ you felt it your place to impose look instead like this: A) Join, and accept that the job sometimes comes with communal showers. B) Don’t join, and go have your neurosis at the YMCA instead. Seriously, you’re a soldier who’s trained to handle armed conflict and the threat of death, and you can’t handle some guy looking at you? You’re protected by the laws in place against sexual harassment, so what are you worried about? I get it that you don’t want some guy randily looking you over when you feel vulnerable. Nobody wants that. That’s why we have rules against sexual harassment, and mechanisms for dealing with it when it happens. Good leadership and clear communication of those rules are what protect you from such abuse, not exclusion of whole swaths of people from employment because they _might_ commit harassment. So tell me again why I shouldn’t have my job, and why people like me should be barred form openly serving in the military, and what exactly it is you’re afraid of that doesn’t constitute sexual harassment. And when you tell me, try to remember that I’m a serving officer in the armed forces of a country that has openly accepted gays in the military for nearly two decades, and where everything is _just fine_, and my straight coworkers are as comfortable as ever. ---
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100/68 "2008-11-19T06:07:56Z")
(Oh, and in case somebody thinks I’ve given up and run away form the thread, I will point out that I’m going to be out of town a lot in the next few days, so I may not always be online to argue stupid US policies with people. Just saying, in case I’m not able to post again for a while.) ---
**Author:** ![Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Petrobey\_Mavromihalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petrobey_Mavromihalis)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100/69 "2008-11-19T08:03:28Z")
You don’t really need to say anymore, **wolfstu**. You’ve nailed it mate - excellent post. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100/70 "2008-11-19T08:06:19Z")
The bisexuals should have to shower alone - they could be lookin at _anybody_! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100/71 "2008-11-19T14:44:40Z")
**wolfstu** : absolutely superb post. Trenchant analysis and solid logic. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100/72 "2008-11-19T15:29:13Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Furthermore, if you check me out naked without my permission, you’re violating me. Once again, you have some serious, deep-seated sexual hang-ups, and yes, you are a fucking homophobe. Great post, **wolfstu.** ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100/73 "2008-11-19T16:01:59Z")
**wolfstu** , if I may ask, what country’s military do you serve in? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100/74 "2008-11-19T17:40:29Z")
He’s Canadian. ---
**Author:** ![mischievous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mischievous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mischievous)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100/75 "2008-11-19T17:54:07Z")
I thought I’d come in here and argue the point some more, but **wolfstu** nailed in in every way that I can imagine. There is one story I would add, though. Some years ago, a poster here on the Dope had his long-term boyfriend sent overseas to Iraq. During is time of deployment, he couldn’t send his partner any letter that acknowledged the love between them, or talked about the house that they lived in together, or said anything personal or endearing. Likewise, he had no way of knowing if his partner was still alive, since he could not be registered as next-of-kin. If his partner was hospitalized, he would not have been able to visit, and if he were ill, his partner would not have been given compassionate leave. How is anyone supposed to maintain their sanity in those conditions? How is a soldier supposed to maintain contact with home if he can’t talk to his loved one? How are those still at home not able to hang on when they know they will not be notified in case of trouble? How does this compare to your apparent terror of happening to be naked in the same room as someone who might (might!) find you attractive? DADT is fucking evil. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100/76 "2008-11-19T18:01:26Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Oh fuck me with a burning porcupine. That’s so gay. ---
**Author:** ![wolfstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100/77 "2008-11-19T18:54:45Z")
> [@Mellivora\_capensis](#): > > **wolfstu** , if I may ask, what country’s military do you serve in? > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > He’s Canadian. Just to confirm that this is true: I’m with the Canadian Armed Forces. And a thank you to **Bricker** , and the others who’ve complimented my post so far. Fun fact: due to NORAD, some Canadians serve in US military installations for continental air and space defence, and some Americans serve similarly in Canada. And further exchange agreements exist that place officers from one country with the units of the other. There could very well be [Canadian gays](http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/06/29/gay-pride.html) defending the US and serving as ersatz Americans _right now_. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100/78 "2008-11-19T19:37:51Z")
So very late in responding - but clearly the party has continued without me. > [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > 1. The charge isn’t mentioning my name. It’s that you didn’t use my name to reference my opinions. You referenced a made-up opinion and attached my name to it. Thus the pitting. So really this complaint is the same as point 3. A valid complaint if I hadn’t actually presented your opinion correctly. But, once again: > [@](#): > > I, Chessic Sense, am bothered by gay men looking at me naked for the same reason a woman wouldn’t want a straight man looking at her naked. That’s exactly what I summarised your viewpoint as. The thread I started on gays being in the shower explored this and I said that you were bothered by the very thought of a gay man looking at you. How is this not an accurate representation of your position based on your previous posts and your subsequent ones in this thread? > [@](#): > > My solution to avoid such a shaming incident is to force all gays in the military to keep it on the DL. > > I am in no way backpedaling. Any questions? Yes, how does someone as stupid and childish as you get to serve in the military? **Wolfstu** , thanks very much for your contributions. As much as I applaud your argument and attempt to reason with the fuck nugget it’s pretty obvious you’re dealing with a lost cause. Oh, and people generally in this thread - how did we get from gays and straights being in the same shower to rape? Seriously, what the fuck is with this kind of conflation? It’s this kind of logic that makes discussion of LGBT issues so difficult, and frustrating for us. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100/79 "2008-11-19T21:18:46Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > A valid complaint if I hadn’t actually presented your opinion correctly. > > That’s exactly what I summarised your viewpoint as. > > The thread I started on gays being in the shower explored this and I said that you were **bothered by the very thought of** a gay man looking at you. How is this not an accurate representation of your position based on your previous posts and your subsequent ones in this thread? > > How did we get from gays and straights being in the same shower to rape? Seriously, what the fuck is with this kind of conflation? 1. Good. That’s all I wanted from this thread. 2. True, but you went farther than that… 3. The bolded part is my problem. “The very thought of” is an overstatement. The thought of “Someone in here might be gay and looking at me” isn’t bothersome at all. What would bother me would be “That man right there is confirmed, undeniably gay [because he said so] and he’s showering/sleeping/bunking with me.” 4. Who’s jumping to rape? I’m certainly not. I’ve gone to great lengths to avoid such verbage. I’ve been trying to stress that living with an openly gay servicemember would be the problem for me, not the rape. **Wolfstu** - We differ on some issues that can not possibly be resolved: A) You say looking at me naked isn’t violating me. I say it is. B) I say not being able to join the military isn’t a very big sacrifice. You say it is. C) You say living in fear by serving closeted is a terrible situation. I say you chose it, you own it…shoulda waited for the policy to change or not joined at all. D) You say that if you were beaten in the military, no one would defend you. I say you are flagrantly wrong and your assailants would be prosecuted to the fullest extent. Your boss IS going to rush to your defense. This is, of course, only true if you grant that the leadership is doing their job correctly. If they aren’t, it’s not due to DADT, but to assholishness on their part. Whatever happens to you, on the other hand, falls under C. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100/80 "2008-11-19T21:42:58Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > 1. Good. That’s all I wanted from this thread. > 2. True, but you went farther than that… > 3. The bolded part is my problem. “The very thought of” is an overstatement. The thought of “Someone in here might be gay and looking at me” isn’t bothersome at all. What would bother me would be “That man right there is confirmed, undeniably gay [because he said so] and he’s showering/sleeping/bunking with me.” > 4. Who’s jumping to rape? I’m certainly not. I’ve gone to great lengths to avoid such verbage. I’ve been trying to stress that living with an openly gay servicemember would be the problem for me, not the rape. It’s like we’re reading two different threads. I hope your job doesn’t involve any written communication beyond signing your name because you seriously suck at it. As for your comments to **wolfstu** you’re not doing much to improve my estimation of you (and I’m sure I’m not alone either). By your reasoning all the black people who lived in the US pre-abolition should have just left the country as the law wasn’t there for their convenience, and slavery is a perfectly acceptable consequence of being black because that’s what the law says. I’m sure you’re going to rail against such a comparison but it’s effectively the same - you’re saying that a policy that is inherently discriminatory isn’t so bad because it happens to not negatively impact you (or in fact suits you quite well). On that basis all progressive politics would be doomed to failure. I’m not sure I’m going to bother contributing to this thread any more, it’s proving to be an intellectual black hole. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-fuck-illuminatiprimus/473100.md?page=5)