# Holy Grail **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2001, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-grail/63921 "2001-05-01T03:55:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2001, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-grail/63921/1 "2001-05-01T03:55:34Z")
I heard a new theory of the holy grail. The grail, legend has it, was either the cup used at the Last Supper, or the cup used to catch the blood from Christ’s side. The Quest for the grail was the ultimate accomplishment for a knight. The earliest references was a latin word: SANGRAEL. Instead of SAN GRAEL = Holy Grail, Translate SANG RAEL = Royal Blood. What is to be searched for is not a cup, but a royal bloodline…The line of Jesus Christ and His wife, Mary Magdeline! Any comments on the validity of this theory? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2001, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-grail/63921/2 "2001-05-01T05:37:01Z")
I guess I would have to say, what’s the evidence in favor of this theory? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2001, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-grail/63921/3 "2001-05-01T06:53:48Z")
Not a new theory, actually. There’s a book called “Holy Blood & Holy Grail” by Michael Bagient, Richard Leigh and Henry Lincoln, which states the theory that Jesus and Mary Magdaline had kids and they formed the Merovingian bloodline of France. That itself is an expansion of the theory by Walter Stein, occultist and sometimes Nazi, who proposed the theory back in the 1930s. I haven’t been able to trace the believe to before Stein, and don’t know if there are any actually Merovingian legends about this. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2001, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-grail/63921/4 "2001-05-01T20:09:35Z")
Well, call me nitpicky… RAEL doesn’t mean royal in Latin or any other language I could find. Also, there are definite references to it being a solid object, ie, when Galahad finds it. Also, there are other artifacts, the Bleeding Spear and the Silver Dish. ---
**Author:** ![Edlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8797f3/32.png) [@Edlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edlyn)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2001, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-grail/63921/5 "2001-05-02T02:42:54Z")
According to Edgar Cayce transcripts, no such relationship existed Jesus and Mary Magdeline, nor any other woman. The cup used at the Last Supper had a broken handle and a chip on the lip. Sylvia Browne said it doesn’t exist. My question is, why should any of this be of any real importance… it wasn’t to Him. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2001, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-grail/63921/6 "2001-05-02T02:59:00Z")
Wow. It’s like getting a fortune cookie that says “Beware of inaccurate horoscopes!” ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2001, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-grail/63921/7 "2001-05-02T03:11:06Z")
> [@](#): > > RAEL doesn’t mean royal in Latin or any other language I could find.RAEL doesn’t mean royal in Latin or any other language I could find. No, but REAL does – in Spanish, and perhaps a few other romance languages as well. This may be what the OP is thinking of. Malory, at least, spells it “sankgreal.” Not that I buy the OP’s theory or anything… ---
**Author:** ![dude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f19dbf/32.png) [@dude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dude)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2001, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-grail/63921/8 "2001-05-02T11:27:13Z")
sounds like a load of rubbish to me - people publishing very thick books which talk twaddle… Do you think they would just leave out kids in the bible ? get real ! ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-grail/63921/9 "2001-05-03T02:46:38Z")
There is zero real evidence Jesus had children. If you believe that, then you might as well just believe in anything else that can’t be “disproven”. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-grail/63921/10 "2001-05-03T04:17:37Z")
There is no proof that Jesus had children - but Mary & Joseph did have children - who would’ve been Jesus’s half-siblings. I wish I could cite a website that traces the bloodline - it could be shilled by William Shatner & called [Christline.com](http://Christline.com) ---
**Author:** ![Opus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/858c86/32.png) [@Opus1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Opus1)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-grail/63921/11 "2001-05-03T04:20:18Z")
Just out of curiosity, what’s the first reference to the Holy Grail? There’s nothing in the Bible about a cup catching Jesus’ blood at the crucifixion. A cup is mentioned at the Last Supper, but no significance is attached to it. The phrase “San Greal” is not used, because the NT was written in Greek, not Latin. If the first reference we have to the Holy Grail is some ridiculously late date like the 8th century, (highly likely, IMHO) than the whole thing is probably a medieval fantasy. This is how valuable paintings are evaluated, BTW. If someone claims to have a Rembrandt, investigators trace the chain of custody. If the farthest they can go back in time without running into a discontinuity is 1920, then it’s probably a fake, as paintings don’t just miraculously appear out of mid-air. ---
**Author:** ![lestrange](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/aca169/32.png) [@lestrange](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lestrange)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-grail/63921/12 "2001-05-03T12:58:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Opus1 \* > \*\*Just out of curiosity, what’s the first reference to the Holy Grail? > > \*\* The earliest, unarguable reference, afaik, is Chretien de Troyes’ Le Conte du Graal, written at the end of the 12th century. The whole cup catching Jesus’ blood thing is entirely absent–a graal was a sort of deep serving platter, and in the story it holds a host (a communion wafer). The bleeding spear (and a cup) are also in the story. Here’s the thing, though–Chretien died before he could finish it. He never explained what the Grail was or what it’s significance was. He was a popular author, and there are several continuations by people trying to finish the story. It was these continuations that influenced the author of the Vulgate Cycle (or the Lancelot-Grail cycle, whichever you prefer), which became the model for the “standard” idea of what the grail is/means when Mallory used it as his basis for much of the Morte d’Arthur. The whole Joseph of Arimathea stuff is quite late. Galahad was an invention of the author of the Vulgate–it seems fairly clear that Perceval was supposed to be the one succeeding in the Grail quest in Chretien. There is, however, a “Gospel of Nicodemus” which I’ve never read. Allegedly, this document (Oh, I found a partial translation [http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/gospels/gosnic.htm](http://wesley.nnu.edu/noncanon/gospels/gosnic.htm) ) has references to the whole Longinus catching Christ’s blood and Joseph of A getting possession of it that are likely to be a (if not the) source for some of the standard Grail story. If the site above is an accurate translation, there’s no reference to the cup there–it seems to be a mostly standard version of the Passion and Ressurection, with the additional bonus of an account of Christ’s descent into Hell. In any event, the link above says that it can’t be dated any earlier than the 4th century. This is pretty late for a gospel, considering that the earliest of the “official” ones is, (correct me if I’m wrong, I know someone will) something like 40 or 50 years after the death of Christ. In short, the Holy Grail is a medieval fantasy, and as far as I know the “Holy Bloodline” thing pretty much has its origins in ideas about racial purity and racial superiority that were part of what formed Nazi ideas on the subject. I’m shaky there, though. Tracing the existence of ideas isn’t as straightforward as tracing the existence of a painting–things can circulate for a long time before someone writes them down, and there’s no way to document that. There are lots of folks who argue that Chretien was just writing down a tradition that had been floating around for 1200 years, and the continuations were accessing that same tradition, but there’s really no way to prove or disprove an assertion like that. Most reputable scholars stick with the earliest written reference, for obvious reasons. Some scholars believe that the grail came from Christian ideas meeting up with Celtic mythological stories about a cup or horn of plenty. A few believe the whole Grail thing comes straight out of Sarmation mythology, with a slight Christian gloss on it. Then there are those who believe that it was (is) a receptacle for the life force of incarnations of God, and is the source of the technology for the Hydrogen Bomb. ( [http://www.williamhenry.net/H-Bomb.htm](http://www.williamhenry.net/H-Bomb.htm) ). There’s a Grail theory to fit everyone’s budget. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-grail/63921/13 "2001-05-03T13:03:41Z")
> [@](#): > > My question is, why should any of this be of any real importance… it wasn’t to Him. 'Cause it’s important to us Arthurian buffs. And **lestrange** , thanks for the amazing post. ---
**Author:** ![lestrange](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/aca169/32.png) [@lestrange](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lestrange)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-grail/63921/14 "2001-05-03T15:17:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LaurAnge \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > My question is, why should any of this be of any real importance… it wasn’t to Him. > > 'Cause it’s important to us Arthurian buffs.\*\* Darn straight! \*\* > [@](#): > > And **lestrange** , thanks for the amazing post. \*\* Gosh, you’re welcome. I’m glad you liked it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-grail/63921/15 "2001-05-03T15:22:50Z")
From lestrange’s second [link](http://www.williamhenry.net/H-Bomb.htm): > [@](#): > > In 1934 president Franklin D. Roosevelt sent agents to Mongolia to search for the reincarnated Christ and the Holy Grail, the secret of transmuting elements. Eleven years later, American scientists involved in the Manhattan Project exploded the first atomic bomb. Did the Secrets of atomic weaponry come from the Holy Grail? When we split the atom in 1945 did we split the word or life-force of God? Did any of these agents perchance wear a fedora and carry a bullwhip? I’ll bet Indy could’ve dealt with that pesky rabbit, though. ---
**Author:** ![Nixon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5fc32e/32.png) [@Nixon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nixon)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2001, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-grail/63921/16 "2001-05-03T16:37:52Z")
Don’t know whether Indy was looking for the Grail: But Hitler, Himmler, and the rest of the Nazi goons really were looking. Archeologist Michael Wood has produced a documentary on the Nazi Ahnenerbe (Ancestral Heritage Society) and their legitimate research and subsequent war crimes in: [http://www.pbs.org/whatson/press/fall/hitlersearch.html](http://www.pbs.org/whatson/press/fall/hitlersearch.html) As pointed out by lestrange above, the Nazis were not looking for Joshua’s cup at the Last Supper (too Jewish) but for the Grail of Celtic and German folk legends. They were also after the lost city of Atlantis, searching for links to a “lost” Aryan culture that probably never existed. Apparently, the long term goal of the Nazis (after completing their murders) was to replace Germany’s Christian religions with a national religion based on ancient German pagan beliefs. IMHO, Wood, who does only the occasional documentary, is among the best out there. ---
**Author:** ![dude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f19dbf/32.png) [@dude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dude)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2001, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-grail/63921/17 "2001-05-05T16:03:46Z")
Thats a load of rubbish as well !, too much media etc. King ‘ran around causing havoc’ and a lot of ‘things were better in the old days you know’ twaddle. sorry - ranting on at the moment - nice idea, no real evidence.