# Holy shit, DeVos was confirmed **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 7, 2017, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266 "2017-02-07T19:35:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266/161 "2017-02-08T18:04:09Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Only a few more to go. > > 4th Secry of Education was Lauro Cavazos. > > Following a stint on the faculties of Tufts University and the Medical College of Virginia. From 1975-80, he served as Dean of the Tufts University School of Medicine. From April 15, 1980, to 1988, he served as President of Texas Tech University. He was both the first alumnus and the first Hispanic to serve as Texas Tech president.[citation needed] > > A Democrat, Cavazos served as Secretary of Education from August 1988 to December 1990 during the Republican Reagan and George H. W. Bush administrations. He was forced to resign amid an investigation into improper use of frequent flyer miles in December 1990. > > 3rd: > William Bennett. He wasn’t Reagen’s first choice, but Mel Bradford had some concerning Pro Confederate beliefs. I dont see much in the way of educational background in Bennett. From 1979 to 1981, he was the executive director of the National Humanities Center, a private research facility in North Carolina. In 1981 President Reagan appointed him to chair the National Endowment for the Humanities, where he served until Reagan appointed him Secretary of Education in 1985. > > Terrell Bell, 2nd Secy of Education Appointed to the Reagan cabinet, Bell was expected to preside over the dismantling of the Department of Education, but he ran into the legal requirement that such a dismantling required legislation. He was well-known, admired, and respected in education circles, having risen from high school teacher through college professor to administrative positions. Bell stood out as a humble man in an administration of moneyed people—he drove a U-Haul truck from Utah to Washington when he moved.[citation needed]. > > And then we have Shirley Hufstedler. > > She was a lawyer and a judge. Wikipedia doesn’t have much of an article on her, but I don’t see much in the way of educational background. So could we reasonably say that the position has not always been held by experts in education? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266/162 "2017-02-08T18:05:43Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > Why does she even want the job? She wants to gut public education. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266/163 "2017-02-08T18:11:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So could we reasonably say that the position has not always been held by experts in education? Sure. A minority of people appointed to the position had no apparent educational background, per a quick glance at Wikipedia. She joins those illustrious ranks. However, your implication was that most that held the position had no experience in education. I dispute that implication. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266/164 "2017-02-08T18:17:53Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why does she have to be the best possible choice? > > Is Rick Perry the best possible choice to lead a department of scientists and engineers? > > I don’t think she will improve education at all. I think she will do great harm. But the OP seems amazed that Republicans could support her. > > I don’t see how she is any worse than Lamar Alexander. > > But you asked for specifics: > > “She was Republican National Committeewoman for Michigan from 1992 to 1997 and served as chairwoman of the Michigan Republican Party from 1996 to 2000, with reelection to the post in 2003. DeVos has been an advocate of the Detroit charter school system[6][7] and she is a member of the board of the Foundation for Excellence in Education. She has served as chairwoman of the board of Alliance for School Choice and Acton Institute and heads the All Children Matter PAC.” > > Sure, its not as good as John King Jr. but we’ve seen worse without much controversy. You might be convinced that the controversy is about her qualifications, but its not. Its about her policies. You are correct in that it is her policies that I am concerned about. And it is her policies that are informed by her ignorance of the department that she will be taking over. The only things in your list are being on think tanks. These were not actually positions of any sort of actual power over policy, other than recommendations and propaganda. (Not that she hasn’t done a considerable amount of damage to michigan and especially detroit’s schools with her advocacy, but that was all without an actual position) It’s not like her job in any of those think tanks was to actually _run_ a school system. And she has enough “experience” that, while it does not actually do her any good, it does tell us where her priorities are, and those priorities are not serving the public with access to high quality education. Tell ya what, there are a million places you could educate yourself about this woman, but I think that [this](http://www.newsweek.com/betsy-devos-trump-education-department-538533) probably is the most informative collation of her history and views, and the wake of destruction she has left behind. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266/165 "2017-02-08T18:23:17Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > She wants to gut public education. Okay. Why does she want to gut public education? On second thought, why is that high on anyone’s agenda? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266/166 "2017-02-08T18:33:55Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It’s not like her job in any of those think tanks was to actually _run_ a school system. Is it the job of the Secretary of Education to “_run_ a school system” in any way? It seems that a lot of people misunderstand what the Secretary of Education does. I am quite happy that the education in the US is mostly controlled at the state level. Dept. of Education, according to [Business Insider](http://www.businessinsider.com/what-does-secretary-of-education-do-betsy-devos-2017-2), “collects data and does research on student outcomes and success, providing national figures that allow for comparison among states”, provides about 8% of the schools districts’ budget through various programs, and “handles matters related to discrimination in schools and colleges”. It also administers some financial aid programs, but that’s not what you’re worried about, right? So - what exactly are you hysterical about? What horrible damage can DeVos cause because she has never been a teacher herself? She is not directly involved in the data collection - the professionals do that. Federal laws and Congress determine where the federal 8% of the districts’ budgets go… It is the smallest federal department that, if it disappeared, wouldn’t be missed that much. Why the Chicken Little imitation from Democrats? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266/167 "2017-02-08T18:58:51Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Oh, snap! You told me! So which kind of stupid is it? Or is it another kind? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266/168 "2017-02-08T19:11:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I understood what you said. The trouble is that what you said wasn’t true. The reason you and the Dems in Congress oppose DeVos is because of the policies she will presumably try to implement. It’s not related to her competence. You fucking imbecile, I told you specifically why I opposed DeVos. Now you want to read my mind and claim I’m really opposing her for a different, secret, reason that only you can divine. You fail mind reading as badly as you fail reading (maybe vouchers would have helped?) Like I’m so terrified of opposing her policies on this board that I have to oppose her for different, secret reasons? And that claim makes sense to you? Put some thought into your posts, you fucking half-wit. > [@](#): > > The problem is that I am not fucking stupid enough to believe you. Don’t sell yourself short, moron. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266/169 "2017-02-08T20:14:50Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > Okay. Why does she want to gut public education? > > On second thought, why is that high on anyone’s agenda? She wants to bring religion to the schools (not specifically Christianity but who are we kidding…of course it will be almost all Christian schools). You cannot do that with state run schools because of that pesky separation of church and state thing in the constitution. > [@](#): > > **Trump’s education pick says reform can ‘advance God’s Kingdom’** > > The billionaire philanthropist whom Donald Trump has tapped to lead the Education Department once compared her work in education reform to a biblical battleground where she wants to “advance God’s Kingdom.” > > \ > > School choice, they say, leads to “greater Kingdom gain.” The two also lament that public schools have “displaced” the Church as the center of communities, and they cite school choice as a way to reverse that troubling trend. > > \ > > Betsy DeVos also described her efforts, using the biblical term “Shephelah,” an area where battles — including between David and Goliath — were fought in the Old Testament. > > “Our desire is to be in that Shephelah, and to confront the culture in which we all live today in ways that will continue to help advance God’s Kingdom, but not to stay in our own faith territory,” she said. > > \ > > “What she wants to do is just make sure education is much more locally controlled,” said Sirico, who talked to DeVos about her “dreams generally” while celebrating Thanksgiving with her family. “That it’s sensitive to the localities, to the states, to the cities, to the families. That’s just going to naturally involve — at least in the great swath of flyover America — that’s going to involve religious education.” > > SOURCE: [http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/betsy-devos-education-trump-religion-232150](http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/betsy-devos-education-trump-religion-232150) ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266/170 "2017-02-08T20:56:51Z")
Yup, she’s a fucking Dominionist. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266/171 "2017-02-08T21:03:47Z")
Look, of course I oppose her because her policies are insane theocratic policies. Of course. I also oppose her because of the not-even-trying-to-hide-it corruption, in which senators she’s funded don’t recuse themselves from voting on her. This is a ridiculous way to run a democracy: if you’ve contributed to someone’s campaign, they shouldn’t be casting votes on appointing you to office. Of course. But I also oppose her for a third reason: she’s completely unqualified to the position. She has no experience running a large organization; she has no experience in public schools; she has no experience navigating federal bureaucracies, except inasmuch as she purchases influence in them. On the first issue, I expect disagreement with terrible fuckin theocrats. On the second issue, I expect disagreement with people who don’t mind a paid-for government. But on the third issue, we ought to be able to agree. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266/172 "2017-02-08T21:16:52Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > I just posted the snippets of all the education secretaries appointed since the position was created (I skipped acting) and the majority do have educational backgrounds. Some were educators, some were in charge of large educational systems administratively, but most had something. What’s hers, again? > > She has advocated for school choice and served on foundations and political action committees? There has only been 11 including DeVos. Richard Riley, Lamar Alexander, William Bennett, and Shirley Hufstedler do not have a background in education. So 4 of the 10 previous secretaries had Background in education. Less experience and qualification than DeVos. Her advoicacy was significant. Its not like she just posted shit on her facebook page. She was one of the most prominent voices and supporters for school choice on the right. Clearly, this unique reaction to DeVos is not the result of something unique about her lack of qualifications. The outrage is not the result of he unique status as an unqualified secretary of education. All of the outrage is because she is a strong proponent of school choice and the teachers unions really hate her. I think she will be a horrible secretary of education but I don’t think it is unreasonable for a Republican to support her. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266/173 "2017-02-08T21:19:22Z")
Lamar Alexander was President of University of Tennessee. (5th Secy of education, under Bush.) So that’s 3 of 10 that had no background at all in education. Less than a third. Her advocacy was “put God in the schools.” I dont consider that significant. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266/174 "2017-02-08T21:24:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > All of the outrage is because she is a strong proponent of school choice and the teachers unions really hate her. I think you mean the “public school teachers and administrators” really hate her. You know, the people with actual experience educating kids. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266/175 "2017-02-08T21:26:14Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > I think you mean the “public school teachers and administrators” really hate her. You know, the people with actual experience educating kids. Hm. Do private school teachers and administrators really hate her? You know, the people with actual experience educating kids? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266/176 "2017-02-08T21:27:04Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You are correct in that it is her policies that I am concerned about. > > And it is her policies that are informed by her ignorance of the department that she will be taking over. > > The only things in your list are being on think tanks. These were not actually positions of any sort of actual power over policy, other than recommendations and propaganda. (Not that she hasn’t done a considerable amount of damage to michigan and especially detroit’s schools with her advocacy, but that was all without an actual position) It’s not like her job in any of those think tanks was to actually _run_ a school system. > > And she has enough “experience” that, while it does not actually do her any good, it does tell us where her priorities are, and those priorities are not serving the public with access to high quality education. > > Tell ya what, there are a million places you could educate yourself about this woman, but I think that [this](http://www.newsweek.com/betsy-devos-trump-education-department-538533) probably is the most informative collation of her history and views, and the wake of destruction she has left behind. Thanks I already know ho bad she well be. I’m not a fan of hers but all this complaining about her qualifications is really misplaced. She is at least as qualified as several previous secretaries. What I don’t like about her is her policy stances but these are not reasons why Republicans would turn on heir own president’s nominee to vote against her. How qualified in Ben Carson to run HUD? How qualified is Rick Perry to run the Department of Energy? Lack of previous experience in the subject matter has never been a disqualifying factor. I just don’t think its fair to say that Republicans are putting party before country by going along with Trump on this one. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266/177 "2017-02-08T21:28:39Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Richard Riley, Lamar Alexander, William Bennett, and Shirley Hufstedler do not have a background in education. So 4 of the 10 previous secretaries had Background in education. Less experience and qualification than DeVos. Her advoicacy was significant. Its not like she just posted shit on her facebook page. She was one of the most prominent voices and supporters for school choice on the right. Ok. If you want to say she has experience then lets see what her efforts have wrought: > [@](#): > > Despite two decades of charter-school growth, the state’s overall academic progress has failed to keep pace with other states: Michigan ranks near the bottom for fourth- and eighth-grade math and fourth-grade reading on a nationally representative test, nicknamed the “Nation’s Report Card.” Notably, the state’s charter schools scored worse on that test than their traditional public-school counterparts, according to an analysis of federal data. > > Critics say Michigan’s laissez-faire attitude about charter-school regulation has led to marginal and, in some cases, terrible schools in the state’s poorest communities as part of a system dominated by for-profit operators. Charter-school growth has also weakened the finances and enrollment of traditional public-school districts like Detroit’s, at a time when many communities are still recovering from the economic downturn that hit Michigan’s auto industry particularly hard. > > The results in Michigan are so disappointing that even some supporters of school choice are critical of the state’s policies. > > SOURCE: [http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/betsy-devos-michigan-school-experiment-232399](http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/betsy-devos-michigan-school-experiment-232399) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266/178 "2017-02-08T21:29:31Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Is it the job of the Secretary of Education to “_run_ a school system” in any way? > > It seems that a lot of people misunderstand what the Secretary of Education does. I am quite happy that the education in the US is mostly controlled at the state level. > > Dept. of Education, according to [Business Insider](http://www.businessinsider.com/what-does-secretary-of-education-do-betsy-devos-2017-2), “collects data and does research on student outcomes and success, providing national figures that allow for comparison among states”, provides about 8% of the schools districts’ budget through various programs, and “handles matters related to discrimination in schools and colleges”. It also administers some financial aid programs, but that’s not what you’re worried about, right? > > So - what exactly are you hysterical about? What horrible damage can DeVos cause because she has never been a teacher herself? She is not directly involved in the data collection - the professionals do that. Federal laws and Congress determine where the federal 8% of the districts’ budgets go… > > It is the smallest federal department that, if it disappeared, wouldn’t be missed that much. Why the Chicken Little imitation from Democrats? 1. They desperately want a “win” 2. She can implement policies that would make it easier for some states that are so inclined to privatize their school systems. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266/179 "2017-02-08T21:30:35Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > Okay. Why does she want to gut public education? > > On second thought, why is that high on anyone’s agenda? Have you MET the Republican party? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266/180 "2017-02-08T21:31:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > How qualified in Ben Carson to run HUD? > > How qualified is Rick Perry to run the Department of Energy? There is no lack of complaints about them. I think DeVos is getting more scrutiny because it’s our kids we’re talking about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-devos-was-confirmed/779266.md?page=10)