# Holy shit! Hell has frozen over! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 13, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444 "2005-09-13T16:43:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444/41 "2005-09-13T22:21:18Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > [Here is another admission from Bush](http://www.bluebus.org/archives/20040827_bush_admits_mis.php) Nope, a “miscalculation,” not a mistake. And not with regard to fucking up by _going_ to Iraq in the first place, no, about what the _conditions_ would be _after_ we got there. That is absolutely not even remotely the same as admitting a mistake. > [@](#): > > [and another](http://www.evote.com/index.asp?Page=/news_section/2004-04/04152004election2004.asp) Good try, but, not. This time he merely “misspoke,” made an “incorrect remark.” You’re really stretching here. > [@](#): > > [and another](http://www.forward.com/campaignconfidential/archives/000973.php) And this is just a repeat of exactly the same thing as your first attempt at an example. Here, let me help you out here. > [@](#): > > [http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004c.html](http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004c.html) > > GRABEL: President Bush, during the last four years, you have made thousands of decisions that have affected millions of lives. **Please give three instances in which you came to realize you had made a wrong decision, and what you did to correct it.** Thank you. > > BUSH: I have made a lot of decisions, and some of them little, like appointments to boards you never heard of, and some of them big. > > And in a war, there’s a lot of – there’s a lot of tactical decisions that historians will look back and say: He shouldn’t have done that. He shouldn’t have made that decision. And I’ll take responsibility for them. I’m human. > > But on the big questions, about whether or not we should have gone into Afghanistan, the big question about whether we should have removed somebody in Iraq, I’ll stand by those decisions, because I think they’re right. > > That’s really what you’re – when they ask about the mistakes, that’s what they’re talking about. They’re trying to say, “Did you make a mistake going into Iraq?” And the answer is, “Absolutely not.” It was the right decision. > > The Duelfer report confirmed that decision today, because what Saddam Hussein was doing was trying to get rid of sanctions so he could reconstitute a weapons program. And the biggest threat facing America is terrorists with weapons of mass destruction. > > We knew he hated us. We knew he’d been – invaded other countries. We knew he tortured his own people. > > On the tax cut, it’s a big decision. I did the right decision. Our recession was one of the shallowest in modern history. > > Now, you asked what mistakes. **I made some mistakes in appointing people** , but I’m not going to name them. I don’t want to hurt their feelings on national TV. Now _there’s_ a shocker of an admission! I guess we know who one of them is _now_, don’t we?! ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444/42 "2005-09-13T22:22:00Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > How will it be established whether or not the federal government did its job right? For one thing, over half of the senior officials at the Federal Emergency Management Agency have virtually no experience in managing emergencies but they do have ties to Bush’s 2000 campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444/43 "2005-09-13T22:24:40Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > Nice try moving the goalposts, though. Where were the original goalposts, again? > [@Hentor](#): > > He has, in fact, been very clear in his belief that he has not made mistakes before this. So, we’re looking for an example of Bush admitting error. > [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > Don’t like my cite? Well, [Here is another admission from Bush](http://www.bluebus.org/archives/20040827_bush_admits_mis.php) Does Bush consider this to be an admission of error? [Let’s see:](http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/01/debate.transcript.8/) > [@](#): > > You have said there was a “miscalculation” of what the conditions would be in postwar Iraq. What was the miscalculation, and how did it happen? > > BUSH: No, what I said was that, because we achieved such a rapid victory, more of the Saddam loyalists were around. I mean, we thought we’d whip more of them going in. > > But because [Gen.] Tommy Franks did such a great job in planning the operation, we moved rapidly, and a lot of the Baathists and Saddam loyalists laid down their arms and disappeared. I thought they would stay and fight, but they didn’t. Does that sound like a “My bad!” to you? > [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > [and another](http://www.evote.com/index.asp?Page=/news_section/2004-04/04152004election2004.asp) Wow, President Bush seems to have put on some weight. It’s almost as though that were some _entirely different person._ > [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > [and another](http://www.forward.com/campaignconfidential/archives/000973.php) That refers to the same “admission” we already looked at. The one where he’s on record as saying “Nononono… I didn’t mean I made a _mistake_ – I meant we did much better than we expected to.” > [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > Yes, Bush is going to qualify his admission. Why shouldn’t he? It’s not like he is totally at fault, and I defy anyone to argue that he is. Your examples of previous admissions aren’t that at all. This is the first time he’s actually shouldered a reasonable amount of responsibility for a major cock-up, and it’s remarkable only because previous major cock-ups have been bluffed through. I think everyone realizes that politicians, by their nature, are going to minimize their faults. Bush just seems to have had the opportunity to bluff his way through a few more fiascos than are par for the course, and has, so far, been doing a pretty good impression of a teflon wall covered in silicone oil. It’s remarkable any time a politician admits culpability without being absolutely forced into it. We can all think of examples where other heads of state have gritted their teeth and kept ducking when it was obvious they were totally at fault, whether it’s your last president’s stonewalling about his extramarital action, or our current PM’s complete denial of responsibility for the biggest corruption scandal in recent Canadian history. Don’t waste your time trying to present ol’ George as a conspicuously forthright politician. They are rare, and he’s pretty far from the mark – which is why we’re rightly gobsmacked by this unexpected turn of events. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444/44 "2005-09-13T22:25:59Z")
> [@](#): > > On the tax cut, it’s a big decision. I did the right decision. **Our recession was one of the shallowest in modern history.** :eek: For your further education, **Psycho Pirate** , I will also offer that “taking responsibility” means not only admitting to making a mistake, but doing everything in one’s power to go about correcting that mistake. You’ll forgive me if I don’t hold my breath. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444/45 "2005-09-13T22:32:50Z")
Count me in among the respondents who are not exactly overwhelmed by the magnanimity or gutsiness of this blame-shouldering, but are nonetheless pleased and approving that Bush at least went as far as he did with it. Thank you, Mr. President. (About time. :p) What I admit worries me, though, is the second paragraph of the linked article: > [@](#): > > “Katrina exposed serious problems in our response capability at all levels of government,” Bush said at a joint White House news conference with Iraqi President Jalal Talabani. Hmm, the moment he chooses to start in admitting mistakes is after he’s been conferring with the leader of the Iraqi transitional government? Oh shit. What’s screwing up over there that we’re about to find out about? ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444/46 "2005-09-13T23:18:37Z")
It took me a few hours but I’ve finally nailed down what has happened these past 24 hours. Unfortunately I don’t have time for a drawn out explanation so here’s the Cliffs notes version: Brown resigned yesterday. When asked what he thought, Bush didn’t offer “no comment” like many might have expected. Instead, he said specifically that he had no clue it had happened. This puzzled me. How in the world would a man in the position Brown was in NOT have told the President when he was resigning? How in the world would Bush NOT have known and specifically admit that he didn’t know? So today we see that Bush is taking responsibility for everything gone wrong at the federal level. Now it clicks. Bush could not fire Brown because that wouldn’t be taking responsibility himself. In fact, Bush had to specifically say he had no possible idea that Brown was resigning because, Bush cannot claim to BOTH take responsibility AND let someone else resign for a blunder at the federal level. If he were to truly take responsibility, he could not let Brown resign. Thus, he announces this after Brown resigns and must feign ignorance as to the resignation. “no comment” wouldn’t work here. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444/47 "2005-09-13T23:45:12Z")
Those of you who shout about inability to admit mistakes and accept responsibility, and you’re also ardent supporters of the previous administration, which had no shortage of lies, deception, and credibility issues? :dubious: Puh-leeze. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444/48 "2005-09-13T23:47:07Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > Ooh, ouch. Such harsh words! I haven’t been insulted so viciously since kindergarten. > > Looks like I hit a nerve. Nice try moving the goalposts, though. > > Don’t like my cite? Well, [Here is another admission from Bush](http://www.bluebus.org/archives/20040827_bush_admits_mis.php) > [and another](http://www.evote.com/index.asp?Page=/news_section/2004-04/04152004election2004.asp) > [and another](http://www.forward.com/campaignconfidential/archives/000973.php) > > These aren’t really hard to fine. Admittedly they are from sites where bitter little people (much like yourself) have nothing better to do than to bash someone who has attained a level of success they can only dream about, Your standards for success are interesting. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Yes, Bush is going to qualify his admission. Why shouldn’t he? It’s not like he is totally at fault, and I defy anyone to argue that he is. And you really are a dolt, many already have mentioned that the local authorities have a share of the blame (me included), we are complaining about the failure for responding late and inadecuately \*\*after \*\* the hurricane. > [@](#): > > The man has power…a LOT of power, but he is not omnipotent. He is incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444/49 "2005-09-13T23:54:17Z")
**Shayna** actually found one. Holy smokes. I guess I had forgotten about that. But we know who he was thinking about don’t we? Anyone who spoke truth to power, such as O’Neill, Clarke, John DiIulio. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444/50 "2005-09-14T00:00:40Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > you’re also ardent supporters of the previous administration Huh? Who here is “an ardent supporter of the previous administration”? I never in my life met a fellow liberal who didn’t have some pretty strong criticisms of Bill Clinton. Certainly I never met anybody who thought he was a paragon of unflinching truth and candor, especially in his personal life. We just didn’t happen to care very much that he lied about getting a blowjob. (And whatever Clinton’s faults, at least he was sometimes capable of shouldering responsibility like a man. He apologized fully for his conduct in the Lewinsky affair; he admitted it had been a mistake to ignore the Rwandan genocide; he apologized for the bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Yugoslavia. No, he doesn’t seem to be a particularly admirable or straightforward person, perhaps not even as politicians go, but at least as President he had **some** notion of where the buck stopped. Which is something that his successor doesn’t seem to have had a clue about until very recently.) ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444/51 "2005-09-14T00:03:09Z")
Ah, the inevitable Clinton _tu quoque_. I was afraid it wasn’t gonna come up until page 2. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444/52 "2005-09-14T00:20:11Z")
I was underwelmed by the semi-apology. However, even if it was a sack cloth and ashes full confession, unless there are steps taken to correct the situation and prevent its recurrence, my reaction will be “so fuggin what”. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444/53 "2005-09-14T00:26:18Z")
**Psycho Pirate** I just wish Dubya wouldn’t qualify everything he says. That debate response that **Shayna** found is “dead on balls accurate”. How did I forget that one? :smack: I remember watching that debate and when that question was asked, the audience was waiting for Dubya to be a “regular” guy and actually say something substantial. Wow just look at that “confession”. :rolleyes: As far as a “double standard” between Dubya and Clinton? I’ll give you my reasons why - and it is NOT due to ideology. Clinton had a shitty, abusive poverty-stricken childhood yet became a Rhodes scholar and President. Also, he could speak correctly and properly. At least he _acted_ Presidential. Ideologically, I’m much more liberal than Ronald Reagan - HOWEVER - he could speak very well, he also came from a humble background and if nothing else, you didn’t feel ashamed the guy was President. Basically, these 2 guys (Clinton and Reagan) _ **EARNED** _ their presidency. It’s not as if someone came up to them and said “Hi Billy, hi Ronny - I’ve got a Presidency for each of you !!” “Oh thank you Daddy !!” ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444/54 "2005-09-14T03:16:41Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > His statement was absolutely correct, and was the mark of a good leader. > > The primary fault with the fiasco in New Orleans lies with the state and city government, who have screwed with the levee and wetlands projects for decades. Bush is quite correct in acknowledging that the federal end of it didn’t work right, but he is also quite correct in not accepting the majority of the blame. I am just in awe of the brilliance of this line of blame-shifting. Not only can you tar the _current_ Democratic governor and mayor, you get to slam the Louisiana Dem’s all the way back to the Kingfish himself! Absolutlely wonderful! Don’t let little things like, say, the facts of who is _actually_[sup]\*[/sup] in charge of those levees and wetlands projects, dissuade you from this. Keep it up, and the propaganda-meisters will soon be knocking down your door. [sup]\*[/sup][Hint](http://www.usace.army.mil/) for the reality-impaired. ---
**Author:** ![Eleusis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Eleusis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleusis)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444/55 "2005-09-14T06:03:21Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > “the number of screwups at the state and local level are an embarassment. When the federal government came to New Orleans they had to deal with halfwits like the mayor and the governor. There’s no reason they should have been put in a position to evacuate 100,000 people when that was the responsibility of those on the ground before the hurricane. The federal government did the best it could given the situation.” Yeah, pretty much. How much would it cost to have the feds that close to everyone, all the time? Surely the national guard of LA could have dropped off food and water at the superdome? /probably another thread, that I missed ---
**Author:** ![PinkMarabou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@PinkMarabou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PinkMarabou)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444/56 "2005-09-14T11:50:08Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > No doubt he and his advisors realized that taking responsibility is what was needed to improve his image as a leader. For someone who doesn’t listen to polls, it appears he’s grappling to [save himself](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/10/bush.poll.ap/) with this light apology. I don’t think it will help him though, not much anyways. He has proved to be incompetent over and over. It just baffles me that he can make so many mistakes and people still line up to lick the sweat off his nuts. Pretty sad when your approval rating is the same as Nixon’s during the Watergate scandal. Even Clinton had a 70% approval rating during the impeachment proceedings and I think his lowest rating was in the lower 40% during his entire 8 years. But it’s about freedom and terrorists and 9-11 and the war on terror and WMD’s and they hate our freedoms and values and . . . ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444/57 "2005-09-14T12:39:47Z")
If Bush were _really_ taking responsibility, he’d resign. Fat chance. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444/58 "2005-09-14T12:41:56Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > Those of you who shout about inability to admit mistakes and accept responsibility, and you’re also ardent supporters of the previous administration, which had no shortage of lies, deception, and credibility issues? :dubious: Puh-leeze. Translation: But Clinton… Fucking Christ. I can only imagine what the next Democratic administration will be like once every fucking question gets answered with “Sure, but Bush fucked up the same thing, only bigger.” Get a new refrain alreadfy. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444/59 "2005-09-14T13:47:44Z")
I don’t get the whole let’s drag in Clinton when the argument isn’t headed in the direction we are comfortable with school of thought. The topic here is Bush and his “taking responsibility”, Bush and his “mistakes”. If a thread about Clinton and his mistakes is started, I will certainly post there. Could there be a lamer apology out there? And what President doesn’t even _know_ that one of his heads of a major department has resigned? A “President” who goes to bed at 9 pm, and focuses more on his bicycling prowess than oh-the country and its people, that’s who. I do so hope that the next administration is not government by frat boy. I think we’ve seen that this doesn’t work… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444/60 "2005-09-14T15:34:57Z")
> [@Baldwin](#): > > If Bush were _really_ taking responsibility, he’d resign. Fat chance. I was thinking more along the lines of committing _seppuku_ in the Rose Garden. Another thing to keep in mind: GeeDub is still angling to head up the investigation, still hoping that he can control the inquiry. Regard this “admission” in that light, and it makes more sense. Phase one will, of course, concentrate on the failings of intelligence and lower levels of governance to provide the President with timely information. Phase two, at some later date yet to be determined, will focus on how that info was applied. It is, of course, possible that phase two may need be postponed, due to the press of Presidential responsibilities. Mmmmm. Yes. Quite. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/holy-shit-hell-has-frozen-over/321444.md?page=4)