# Home Buying: Website for Finding/Reporting a Property's "Dirty Secrets?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 21, 2018, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-buying-website-for-finding-reporting-a-propertys-dirty-secrets/823270 "2018-10-21T00:57:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-buying-website-for-finding-reporting-a-propertys-dirty-secrets/823270/21 "2018-10-22T16:16:35Z")
How would someone have access to the fact that some alteration to a home was not properly permitted, in order to run such a website? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-buying-website-for-finding-reporting-a-propertys-dirty-secrets/823270/22 "2018-10-22T16:55:27Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > How would someone have access to the fact that some alteration to a home was not properly permitted, in order to run such a website? Most data of that sort is public record. Many sites compile large databases from small, public sources. And _some_ of it is accurate. This is where a home inspection is invaluable and a buyer’s agent, useful. > [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > Pennsylvania requires that the seller sign a disclosure agreement which lists all sort of things, like whether asbestos is present, whether there is lead paint, if there is a history of termites, etc. There’s a similar requirement in Wisconsin, and I think many other states. However, the seller is under no obligation to investigate or dig for flaws. This form is more of a “get out of jail free card” for the seller; if the seller discloses a defect to the buyer, the buyer cannot sue for the defect later. If the seller is _not aware_ of a defect (could be difficult to find), it’s up to the buyer to find it. Also, if the seller is a trustee or relative of the property’s occupant – who might not be aware of a defect – then he is not obligated to complete this form. Obviously, it can be hard to prove that a seller knew about a non-disclosed defect, so that’s a loophole. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-buying-website-for-finding-reporting-a-propertys-dirty-secrets/823270/23 "2018-10-22T17:02:37Z")
> [@nightshadea](#): > > so he wants the house equilivent of Carfax? That was my first thought. The difference is that car repair shops report data to Carfax, so you can find out if a car has been in three accidents. But houses don’t work like that. You could probably create such a site but I think it would be limited to things like major repairs (repair and replacement of HVAC, roof) which would tell you what got fixed but no clue as to what is currently wrong, like termite infestation, nosy neighbors, rotten window frames, etc. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-buying-website-for-finding-reporting-a-propertys-dirty-secrets/823270/24 "2018-10-22T17:52:26Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > How would someone have access to the fact that some alteration to a home was not properly permitted, in order to run such a website? > [@Musicat](#): > > Most data of that sort is public record. Many sites compile large databases from small, public sources. And _some_ of it is accurate. Right, but if I decide to redo a bathroom or kitchen myself without a permit, it might not be obvious to a buyer some years down the road that I had done it or that I didn’t do everything to code, if there are no visible violations. A list of permits that were obtained would provide a positive indication that things were done right, but in the vast majority of cases where was done without a permit, a buyer wouldn’t necessarily have any way to know that a permit that \*should \*have been pulled _wasn’t_. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2018, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-buying-website-for-finding-reporting-a-propertys-dirty-secrets/823270/25 "2018-10-22T18:33:06Z")
> [@richw211](#): > > PastTense - I realize that such a website probably does exist and probably never will, at least not for long. I assume that the folks that are interested in quickly moving properties would find some way to shut down such a website. Less than the issue of lawsuits, the problem would be that the person with the most knowledge of a building is its owner, and they’re not liable to post to such a website. And anyone else has better things to do than snoop on the other structures in their neighborhood and write nasty reports about them. It’s not clear who would write the information for your database. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2018, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-buying-website-for-finding-reporting-a-propertys-dirty-secrets/823270/26 "2018-10-22T19:28:34Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Most data of that sort is public record. Data of what sort? What data could someone collect to show unpermitted modifications to homes? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2018, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-buying-website-for-finding-reporting-a-propertys-dirty-secrets/823270/27 "2018-10-22T20:04:47Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Data of what sort? What data could someone collect to show unpermitted modifications to homes? You are expecting too much to land in your lap without doing any work. Data does exist if a permit has been filed. If it isn’t filed, and a modification was done, it was unpermitted. Aye, that’s the rub! You need someone to uncover mods that \*might \*need permits. Acquire the assistance of an expert. That’s what a home inspector is for. A home inspector is a generalist, and may suggest hiring a specialist for a deeper look. > [@commasense](#): > > Right, but if I decide to redo a bathroom or kitchen myself without a permit, it might not be obvious to a buyer some years down the road that I had done it or that I didn’t do everything to code, if there are no visible violations. > > A list of permits that were obtained would provide a positive indication that things were done right, but in the vast majority of cases where was done without a permit, a buyer wouldn’t necessarily have any way to know that a permit that \*should \*have been pulled _wasn’t_. Right you are. Hire a home inspector, Dude. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2018, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-buying-website-for-finding-reporting-a-propertys-dirty-secrets/823270/28 "2018-10-22T20:52:14Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > You are expecting too much to land in your lap without doing any work. Data does exist if a permit has been filed. If it isn’t filed, and a modification was done, it was unpermitted. Aye, that’s the rub! You need someone to uncover mods that \*might \*need permits. > > Acquire the assistance of an expert. That’s what a home inspector is for. A home inspector is a generalist, and may suggest hiring a specialist for a deeper look. > Right you are. Hire a home inspector, Dude. I think **Tom Tildrum** and I both assumed your suggestion was in response to the concept of a “Carfax for houses,” and not general advice to home buyers. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-buying-website-for-finding-reporting-a-propertys-dirty-secrets/823270/29 "2018-10-22T22:03:07Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > You are expecting too much to land in your lap without doing any work. Data does exist if a permit has been filed. If it isn’t filed, and a modification was done, it was unpermitted. Aye, that’s the rub! You need someone to uncover mods that \*might \*need permits. I think we’re agreeing with one another, although maybe we’ve been talking about slightly different things. The OP asked why there isn’t a website out there with collected information about unpermitted modifications. I asked how anyone could possibly collect such information (because I don’t think that what the OP is looking for actually exists). You indicated that data was publicly available (which confused me), but now I think you were referring to data about permits. We’re on the same page – and the OP isn’t going to find what he’s looking for. ---
**Author:** ![mmmiiikkkeee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@mmmiiikkkeee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmiiikkkeee)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-buying-website-for-finding-reporting-a-propertys-dirty-secrets/823270/30 "2018-10-23T19:00:45Z")
You’re looking for the equivalent of family gossip (which relative stole money from their parents as a kid, which cousins fooled around with each other during a sleep over), only for a physical house. Most of this type of information isn’t recorded and is seldom even discussed out loud, so if you find out about it you either need to get lucky or find people willing to talk about it - that kind of info can’t really be assembled into a searchable database since it’s so hit and miss and tedious to figure out. I own a house with a very slight roof leak which only drips for a few minutes every other year during very heavy rain. You’d never know it just to look and I’ll never tell anyone about it should I choose to sell. I also use to own a house for which I wanted to take a look at the design drawings ( so I wouldn’t have to recreate them myself). The county told me they destroy all such records after 7 years, so even if an official design and permit was issued you may not be able to find out about it if enough time has passed. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-buying-website-for-finding-reporting-a-propertys-dirty-secrets/823270/31 "2018-10-24T02:19:16Z")
> [@mmmiiikkkeee](#): > > I also use to own a house for which I wanted to take a look at the design drawings ( so I wouldn’t have to recreate them myself). The county told me they destroy all such records after 7 years, so even if an official design and permit was issued you may not be able to find out about it if enough time has passed. That depends on the county. For my house (Hennepin county, Minnesota) I have obtained records (scanned copies of originals) back to the construction. Even shows when the outhouse was replaced with indoor plumbing (July, 1918). ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-buying-website-for-finding-reporting-a-propertys-dirty-secrets/823270/32 "2018-10-24T16:25:46Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I think we’re agreeing with one another, although maybe we’ve been talking about slightly different things. The OP asked why there isn’t a website out there with collected information about unpermitted modifications. I asked how anyone could possibly collect such information (because I don’t think that what the OP is looking for actually exists). You indicated that data was publicly available (which confused me), but now I think you were referring to data about permits. We’re on the same page – and the OP isn’t going to find what he’s looking for. Correct. The best one can really do is investigate house by house. There isn’t any sort of clearinghouse that I’m aware of. That said, it may be possible to find out quite a bit once you’ve decided that a house is worth investigating. For example, you can look at the square footage advertised in the listing and compare it to what the city assessor has on file. If it’s different, the first thing I’d check into is whether the seller finished the basement. In my city the assessor also tells whether there is a deck. If it’s not listed there, but there’s a nice new deck shown in the RE listing, then an interested buyer could check on the permit status of the deck and make sure the inspector takes a very close look at it. A good RE agent will know what sort of stuff requires permits and what doesn’t, and probably knows what “tells” to look for. They also might have access to prior listings and can look back to compare differences in the property from sale to sale. ---
**Author:** ![busterpickle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@busterpickle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/busterpickle)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-buying-website-for-finding-reporting-a-propertys-dirty-secrets/823270/33 "2018-10-24T17:40:43Z")
Unlike a car which goes in for periodic maintenance, no such thing for a house that I am aware of. If it did exist it would be based on the municipality in that they would require any work performed on any domicile to be logged with them. Probably why no clearing house for said info as any real-estate site could probably develop a web hook to pull any related info from the local permitting/zoning office. Having bought a few houses, I’ve checked the local permitting/zoning office for each one. I didn’t’ make a decision based solely off of that info but it was part of the overall equation. As for termites, those guys are everywhere. I’d rather see some treatment effort versus no treatment effort. FYI, they have a colony “somewhere” and travel around looking for food (wood in your house). You can use liquid that’s poured into a 12-18" trench around the house, or, use the in-ground stakes which they’ll find and bring the chemical back to the colony and cause collapse. I have both, chemical via a company, stakes by me. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-buying-website-for-finding-reporting-a-propertys-dirty-secrets/823270/34 "2018-10-24T18:36:25Z")
Local governments are starting to look into using the widely available aerial photos to find un permitted additions. Realty companies also also waiting this data as they are sometimes involved in litigation if the sellers don’t disclose these things to the buyers. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-buying-website-for-finding-reporting-a-propertys-dirty-secrets/823270/35 "2018-10-24T19:00:29Z")
If you’re considering buying a house to live in, it’s best that you talk to your neighbors-to-be. Knock on their doors, introduce yourself as a potential buyer of such-and-such house, and ask them what they think of the house and the neighborhood. Many people will tell you things the real estate agent can’t or won’t. And if you do buy, you won’t be a complete stranger. Also, park near the house several times and watch the neighborhood. Find out what it’s like during the day, after school, early evening, and late night. Sit for an hour or so. On more than one day. I also recommend getting an exclusive buyer’s agent. They get paid when you buy, but don’t have an incentive for you to buy any particular house. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-buying-website-for-finding-reporting-a-propertys-dirty-secrets/823270/36 "2018-10-24T19:18:25Z")
I’ll echo the “Get an inspector!” advice. They’re supposed to give your prospective home a once-over looking for the obvious to a trained eye issues that a home might have. Stuff like foundation problems, plumbing problems, roof problems, etc… they know the signs and portents and can communicate them to you. Of course, that doesn’t give you any indication whether the previous homeowner had his BIL do the kitchen renovations half-assedly, if the cabinets appear to be well fixed to the walls, the pipes aren’t leaking, the lights and plugs have power, etc… ---
**Author:** ![Nansbread1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Nansbread1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nansbread1)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-buying-website-for-finding-reporting-a-propertys-dirty-secrets/823270/37 "2018-10-25T16:00:14Z")
So who is going to addinfo for any house. Certainly not the seller. Maybe neighbours. How does the buyer know if it is malicious or not? ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2018, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-buying-website-for-finding-reporting-a-propertys-dirty-secrets/823270/38 "2018-10-25T21:36:19Z")
> [@richw211](#): > > … > 2. The next house that I seriously considered buying: During the viewing I noticed several red plastic disks labelled “SmartDisk” attached to the ground outside at locations around the foundation. With a little searching I found out that these are devices for monitoring for or dispersing pesticide to treat termite infestations. Needless to say that I didn’t be submit an offer for that property. For the one with the unpermitted improvements, yeah - I’d have backed out also. Re the termites: If you’re in a termite-prone area, this sort of thing is a fact of life. Whatever you buy, have an annual termite inspection. They’ll catch the infestation before it gets into the house itself. I dont know if those traps are a good idea or just marketing hype - but at least they’re a sign that the homeowner is watching out for this issue. We’d been told by our realtor, nearly 30 years back, that our area is at risk, so we maintain a contract and have the place inspected annually. One year, they found evidence of them in the soil near the house. Friends nearby did not know of the issue so their house developed an infestation and (I think) had to be tented to get rid of the termites. There is something called a CLUE report that you can pull for a property, that will turn up large insurance claims made for the address. When we sold our townhouse, the buyers got one, that turned up some chimney issues we’d had a couple years earlier (metal through-the-roof chimney pipe blew off in a storm). ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2018, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-buying-website-for-finding-reporting-a-propertys-dirty-secrets/823270/39 "2018-10-25T21:37:45Z")
Something else to consider: explicitly write into the contract that the seller warrants that all improvements were made legally with all required permits and inspections. I don’t know if buyer’s title insurance would cover you in the event you purchased and there were surprises discovered later, but that’s something to ask about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-buying-website-for-finding-reporting-a-propertys-dirty-secrets/823270.md?page=1)