# Home Owners Assoc. bankrupts itself over size limit of election poster in a yard **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 10, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887 "2013-02-10T17:03:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/21 "2013-02-11T05:28:57Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Why does it have to be auctioned off to another developer? can’t the Farrans just put a lien on the central green space to enforce their judgment against it, giving them priority in the bankruptcy? I suppose that’s true. The land could be sold to a developer or anyone else with deep pockets – I dunno how big a block of land it is, but it might be a rare chance for some reasonably wealthy individual to buy a chunk of land just outside DC large enough for a big sprawling estate and grounds. I wonder if there is a possible settlement of the Farrans taking over the HOA and having all the fees paid to them? I’m somewhat doubtful of this – the board could presumably lower the assessments as quick as they raised them and in doing so eliminate the income, and I don’t know that an individual (or couple) could be given control or veto power over the actions of a homeowners’ association. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/22 "2013-02-11T05:37:05Z")
That article confirmed my resolve to never purchase a home controlled by a HOA. I see no need for a HOA at all. The majority of homeowners take care of their property and are good neighbors. Maybe someone does put up a large yard sign during an election. So what? It will be gone after the election. I’ve never been a fan of cookie cutter subdivisions with the same boring design and colors. If someone wants to paint their house red or bright yellow thats fine with me. A little bit of color just makes the neighborhood more interesting. There’s just no need to give a HOA so much power over an entire neighborhood. There’s already city ordinances to take care of people that don’t mow their yard, or have trash or junk cars in the yard. You don’t need a HOA for that type of stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/23 "2013-02-11T06:26:30Z")
> [@DMark](#): > > …there are already enough county laws to stop most problems… > [@sisu](#): > > …in Australia we typically leave this stuff up to local councils… It’s an interesting question why restrictions of this sort may seem more palatable when imposed at a county level than a neighborhood. They are differences of degree rather than of kind, yet HOAs seem to inspire much greater antipathy. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/24 "2013-02-11T06:35:49Z")
County or city ordinances cover stuff like keeping the grass mowed. Broken cars in the yard or even trash. I fully agree that any homeowner has a responsibility to keep their property maintained. The city will never tell someone they can’t paint their house Red. Or restrict campaign yard signs. That Washington Post article said that HOA was forcing people to put dividers in their windows? That’s just ridiculous. HOA’s want boring, cookie cutter houses that all look basically the same with neutral colors. \ That’s not for me. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/25 "2013-02-11T07:33:41Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The city will never tell someone they can’t paint their house Red. Or restrict campaign yard signs. [http://www.wellingtonfl.gov/faqs/planning-a-zoning.html](http://www.wellingtonfl.gov/faqs/planning-a-zoning.html) > [@](#): > > Q. Do I need a permit from the city to paint my house? > > Yes. The proposed color must match a color on the city’s approved paint palette. [http://www.campaignsandelections.com/print/268587/a-right-of-way-for-campaign-signs.thtml](http://www.campaignsandelections.com/print/268587/a-right-of-way-for-campaign-signs.thtml) > [@](#): > > After a movement by many municipalities across the country to restrict or ban their placement in recent years, campaign signs appear to be making a comeback—even in places where local officials have worked hard to restrict their use. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/26 "2013-02-11T07:48:42Z")
I hadn’t heard about those types of city restrictions before. Except for houses in registered historic districts. I know historic houses have restrictions meant to keep them looking original. For example if you want to change the windows then the new ones have to look very similar to the old ones. It’s all meant to keep a historic street looking the same as it did originally. _This Old House_ fixed up some old Victorians. I recall they got paint chips off the house and sent it to a lab. They figured out what the colors were originally on the house after it was built. The color scheme on a Victorian is really important. That’s why they are affectionately known as Painted Ladies. 😉 If you buy a house in a historic district then chances are you’ll have to get renovations approved by the local Historical Commission. ---
**Author:** ![Seanette](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/seanette/32/9139_2.png) [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/27 "2013-02-11T07:58:12Z")
The more I hear about HOAs, the more I think that X-Files episode about one wasn’t much of an exaggeration. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/28 "2013-02-11T08:10:08Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > That article confirmed my resolve to never purchase a home controlled by a HOA. I see no need for a HOA at all. The majority of homeowners take care of their property and are good neighbors. Maybe someone does put up a large yard sign during an election. So what? It will be gone after the election. I’ve never been a fan of cookie cutter subdivisions with the same boring design and colors. If someone wants to paint their house red or bright yellow thats fine with me. A little bit of color just makes the neighborhood more interesting. > > There’s just no need to give a HOA so much power over an entire neighborhood. There’s already city ordinances to take care of people that don’t mow their yard, or have trash or junk cars in the yard. You don’t need a HOA for that type of stuff. If you and your HOA are wealthy enough, you may get some services better than the city could deliver them, like getting your roads plowed more promptly after a snowfall, or having security check people in and out of your gated community, etc. That’s not to say I think they’re a better choice, but one can make an argument that an HOA that focuses on things you care about is a worthwhile investment. Of course, it may turn on you some day, and stop you from doing things you want to do. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/29 "2013-02-11T08:56:10Z")
HOA went insane. The residents that belong to the HOA should have stopped the HOA in time. They didn’t. So they’re responsible and should stop whining. I really don’t see any fault with what Farrans did. One great thing that came out of this is the precedent established that HOAs “cannot claim powers, such as fining, that are not specifically laid out in their covenants”. You’d think that was obvious, but apparently it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/30 "2013-02-11T10:33:30Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I suppose that’s true. The land could be sold to a developer or anyone else with deep pockets – I dunno how big a block of land it is, but it might be a rare chance for some reasonably wealthy individual to buy a chunk of land just outside DC large enough for a big sprawling estate and grounds. It is 3/4 acre. Not much room for much sprawling, especially since it will be surrounded by townhouses. A developer will probably slap in more townhouses and recoup their money when they sell them off. > [@](#): > > I wonder if there is a possible settlement of the Farrans taking over the HOA and having all the fees paid to them? Of the $3200/yr in additional fees I’m thinking that about half are now going to the Farrans. If I lived there, I would be sending them a “Go screw yourself” card each time I wrote out that check. I lived under an HOA once and will never do it again. It isn’t just the outside, they can tell you what curtains to have in your windows as well. In mine, the HOA manager was a paid position and she also hired her BFF as an accountant who was also paid (and on the board) and … sure enough… they voted themselves a generous salary raise each and every year. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/31 "2013-02-11T11:04:46Z")
When my husband and I went house hunting a couple of years ago, we both made up lists of what we wanted and didn’t want in a house. For instance, I didn’t want steps or stairs, but I wanted a room that I could use as a library/computer/game room. And here I am. My husband wanted a big yard, with a place to park his truck, and RV, and other vehicles. Both of us had, at the top of our lists, “NO HOA”. And every time I read a story like this, I’m happy that we were able to find a house that wasn’t in an HOA. It seems to me that the main problem here was that the HOA in question had no real restraints on it…it was meeting in secret, bumping up the fees, etc. without any oversight. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/32 "2013-02-11T11:27:07Z")
Another anti-HOA person here. It always seems to me that any potential bad neighbour problems that a HOA might prevent are far outweighed by the potential bad neighbour problems a HOA can create. The risk of an idiot parking a rusty car on his front lawn or painting his house purple is more acceptable to me than the risk of an idiot taking over the local HOA and telling me what I can do with my lawn and what color I have to paint my house. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/33 "2013-02-11T12:10:44Z")
I’m curious where you guys are getting this information that the HOAs debt is primarily owed to the Farrans. It looks like the HOA owes the Farrans about $100,000 to cover **their legal fees** , and that the rest of its debt (estimated at over $400,000) is to cover the HOAs legal fees. I don’t really think much of any money is going directly to the Farrans, who if they received any financial award at all probably received a small one. (I don’t see anything in the case that would indicate they’d receive a large financial reward, they were suing to stop a HOAs actions in regards to fining and regulating them and the article never mentioned damages, just court costs.) Since the HOA is bankrupt it actually looks like both the Farrans and the HOA are still deep in the red from this case, since the Farrans had to spend $100,000 out of pocket in the lawsuit and probably haven’t received nearly that yet from the bankrupt HOA. ---
**Author:** ![FairyChatMom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fairychatmom/32/21906_2.png) [@FairyChatMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairyChatMom)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/34 "2013-02-11T12:11:19Z")
Our last place in FL had an HOA full of power-mad idiots who were trying to drag a working-class neighborhood (houses sold in the very low $100K range) up to the country club level. They did semi-annual inspections of lawns and fences! :eek: They fined people for leaving trash cans at the curb overnight. If you drove your work vehicle and parked it in your driveway, you had to cover up all commercial markings - our neighbor across the street had to buy magnetic panels to cover the doors of the husband’s work van. Seriously??? 😕 They tried to get people to remove their satellite dishes, but that got shot down by a state (or fed?) law. The neighborhood was one street with fewer than 50 houses, but the board was full of retirees who had nothing better to do then futz in their yards and judge their neighbors. I was so glad to get out of there. Needless to say, we avoided HOA developments when we moved. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/35 "2013-02-11T12:14:16Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > According to the OP story in Virginia, this is not quite the case, though of course this will vary from state to state. Apparently, the original covenant that these people agreed to did not include the power for the HOA to levy fines to enforce its rulings; the HOA voted itself the power to do so as part of the process that led to the lawsuit. And the lawsuit actually established the legal precedent (for Virginia) that an HOA doesn’t have the power to do so unless those are the terms of the covenant as originally established. I’m not sure what you mean when you said that was not quite the case. Under Virignia law a HOA can fine for infractions if its covenant says it can. I did not say the HOA in Belhaven could fine under its covenant, I said “Typically under the **contractual agreement** , they have the right to charge you for things. Typically just a maintenance fee, but they can promulgate regulations that are enforceable by fines. If you fail to pay your maintenance fee or fines, they can actually attach a lien on your home.” You are correct, as the Washington Post article says, if that power **isn’t in the contract that creates the HOA** then the HOA cannot fine residents. That is exactly what I said, that under the contract agreement a HOA can typically fine, obviously if it isn’t in the contract they cannot. But many, many HOAs that I’ve heard of at least, have this power. Such that I think it’s accurate to say fining power is an ordinary HOA power here in Virginia. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/36 "2013-02-11T13:06:58Z")
I once saw a documentary about this. I think it was called Over the Hedge. A few years ago I was ranting in the pit about my own HOA and the yenta that tried to make our lives miserable. I have since moved out. No HOA, although I live in a private town and the company that owns/manages it has the same functions, somehow it just doesn’t seem so onerous though. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/37 "2013-02-11T13:25:10Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The risk of an idiot parking a rusty car on his front lawn or painting his house purple is more acceptable to me than the risk of an idiot taking over the local HOA and telling me what I can do with my lawn and what color I have to paint my house. Same here. But a lot of people obsess over conformity and everything always “looking nice” and are willing to give up some freedom for this perceived good. Seeing as how local governments are bad enough when it comes to this nonsense (the city council in West Des Moines, IA got slammed recently for [considering an ordinance](http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/dmr/index.php/2013/02/07/west-des-moines-drops-vegetable-garden-ban-discussion/article) preventing residents from growing vegetables and fruit in their front yards, _based on a single complaint_), why would you give your neighbors opportunities to add to petty tyranny? My brother is head honcho of a smallish HOA and they do things like contracting for private snow removal. There apparently aren’t rules for uniform mail boxes and the rest of the silly tripe that HOAs elsewhere go nuts over. ---
**Author:** ![lost4life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@lost4life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lost4life)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/38 "2013-02-11T13:46:41Z")
I’ve mentioned our HOA here before. We only meet once a year. People usually show up drunk. On more than one occasion the police had to be called. The president is not a home owner. I was living out of town and missed the last meeting and wound up as vice president. I have no desire to be, nor am I running, but I’ll probably wind up as president this year. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/39 "2013-02-11T14:34:16Z")
The whole system smells bad to me. It’s like allowing another level of government to be formed with a contract, restricting people’s rights without what would be considered due process otherwise. I’d never buy a home with those restrictions. The current levels of government are burdensome enough already. ---
**Author:** ![Ruby\_Slippers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/94ad74/32.png) [@Ruby\_Slippers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby_Slippers)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/40 "2013-02-11T15:05:47Z")
I just can’t picture how the other residents allowed this situation to continue even as HOA fees spiraled out of control. Did they not know what was happening? If my fee increased to such a degree, I’d be knocking on neighbors’ doors and demanding a meeting of all residents. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887.md?page=3)