# Home Owners Assoc. bankrupts itself over size limit of election poster in a yard **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 10, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887 "2013-02-10T17:03:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/41 "2013-02-11T15:42:54Z")
HOA’s seem to me just a way to ensure crazy neighbour battles blossom into full on, entire neighbourhood sized wars. Why would the people whom the HOA rule, not stand up and say ‘enough’ ? Could it be they are predominantly Republican’s and so didn’t really mind that the HOA was overstepping it’s authority, misusing it for political reasons, because their own political affiliations were aligned. Or does anyone really believe this was about a sign being 4 inches too large? If it really was about the size then they would have been fully satisfied with the two smaller signs. If, as I suggest, such was really the case then everyone living there fully earned a bankruptcy and loss of public space and a drop in home values. Blaming the people being subjected to such harassment is incredibly disingenuous to me. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/42 "2013-02-11T15:49:44Z")
It’s a combination of apathy and intimidation. I was in an HOA that was swindled by its manager with the complicity of some board members. When the finances came to light, the manager bolted (still not found by the time we sold), and a new board and new management company came in. Unfortunately, the new board included the lady who had nothing else to do all day but walk her dog while looking for violations. …anyway… My wife happens to work at an HOA management company. It’s an outside agency that helps the boards run the communities. In addition to ordinary duties like securing contracts for reliable landscaping, security, roof maintenance, and whatnot, the managers try their best to prevent this kind of stupidity by their boards. Nobody wins but the lawyers. The HOA in the OP sounds like a self-managed association. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/43 "2013-02-11T15:54:18Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > …Or does anyone really believe this was about a sign being 4 inches too large? If it really was about the size then they would have been fully satisfied with the two smaller signs… I believe it was about the sign being too large, in one sense. In reality it was about a petty little dictatorship determined to control everything in its realm. But IMO, if it was a “Romney” sign that broke the rules, the HOA would have done exactly the same thing. But it’s unclear to me whether that’s the thrust of your post. Are you saying the HOA pushed this because it was an Obama sign rather than a Romney sign? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/44 "2013-02-11T16:14:29Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > And the lawsuit actually established the legal precedent (for Virginia) that an HOA doesn’t have the power to do so unless those are the terms of the covenant as originally established. The Washington Post story does indeed give this impression. But it’s not quite correct. There was no Virginia law directly on point prior to this case. But this case was decided by the circuit court and has not been appealed to the Virginia Court of Appeals. As such, there is no precedent set: the decision is binding only one the litigants. Another judge in another case could rule differently. When the Court of Appeals decides to uphold (or reverse) a circuit court, that decision typically sets sets precedent. (Actually, the Court of Appeals decides a number of cases without “publishing” them, meaning that they too are not precedent-setting, but typically only does so when there are no novel issues in play). So it’s “precedent setting” in the sense that it’s never been addressed before, but not in the sense that it binds future courts. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/45 "2013-02-11T16:18:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So it’s “precedent setting” in the sense that it’s never been addressed before, but not in the sense that it binds future courts. Thanks for clarifying the situation. ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/46 "2013-02-11T17:08:33Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > It’s an interesting question why restrictions of this sort may seem more palatable when imposed at a county level than a neighborhood. They are differences of degree rather than of kind, yet HOAs seem to inspire much greater antipathy. At least here, the county enforces the basic laws using the local sheriff. They won’t come if you have an Obama sign in the window nor will they show up if you have a dead spot of grass. However, they will come if a car has been abandoned or parked in one spot too long (have seen this happen) or if your pool is being neglected and algae is growing in it (seen this happen) or if you have an RV and a semi parked in front of your house, etc. In other words, things that are truly ugly or dangerous to environment. Our neighbors painted their house green - a no-no for HOA - and I think it looks great. Since then, another neighbor painted his house a deep, dark brown - also looks great. So while this does “set their houses apart” from the rest of us, nobody is complaining and all is well with the world. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/47 "2013-02-11T17:20:41Z")
\*_ **disclaimer** _ I’m the guy that got red asphalt shingles 9 years ago. 😃 I always liked red tile roofs. Red tile wouldn’t fit the architecture of my home. But I love my red asphalt shingles. I got the best 30 year grade. The only thing better is architectural shingles which I didn’t want to waste money on. Never heard any of my neighbors complain. I had a light yellow (cream) vinyl siding installed 7 years ago. But several homes on my street have vinyl siding. Thats common here. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/48 "2013-02-11T19:33:37Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > That article confirmed my resolve to never purchase a home controlled by a HOA. I see no need for a HOA at all. The majority of homeowners take care of their property and are good neighbors. Maybe someone does put up a large yard sign during an election. So what? It will be gone after the election. I’ve never been a fan of cookie cutter subdivisions with the same boring design and colors. If someone wants to paint their house red or bright yellow thats fine with me. A little bit of color just makes the neighborhood more interesting. > > There’s just no need to give a HOA so much power over an entire neighborhood. There’s already city ordinances to take care of people that don’t mow their yard, or have trash or junk cars in the yard. You don’t need a HOA for that type of stuff. It depends. Some developments have common property, such as roads, swimming pools, elevators, etc., which must be maintained. In those cases there is no reasonable alternative to an HOA. For example, in a high rise condo building, it is the HOA fees that pays for the maintainance of the elevators because they belong jointly to all the residents. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/49 "2013-02-11T19:50:45Z")
Pfft. This story is an entertaining read, and to be sure the HOA deserves every bit of derision they are receiving. But if you want [a _really_ good story about HOA corruption and scandal, you have to look to Las Vegas. > [@](#): > > Four suicides, a single lawyer making more than $100 million, a man beaten severely, voter fraud, homeowner association manipulation, family companies left bankrupt, ripped-off homeowners and now dozens of federal indictments. ]([Las Vegas News | Breaking News & Headlines | Las Vegas Review-Journal](http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/the-hoa-scandal-159340445.html)) [ > [@](#): > > In 2006, condominium owners in Las Vegas’ Vistana community were accused by a lawyer of dreaming up wild, Oliver Stone-like conspiracy theories as they complained about corruption in their community association. > > After six years, more than two dozen guilty plea deals and four untimely deaths among witnesses or participants, the Vistana owners say they have been vindicated in their suspicions that their community association board had been hijacked so that lucrative legal work and repairs involving construction defects would be steered to particular individuals. ]([http://www.vegasinc.com/news/2012/jun/03/hoa-scandal-involving-millions-dollars-and-thousan/](http://www.vegasinc.com/news/2012/jun/03/hoa-scandal-involving-millions-dollars-and-thousan/)) [ > [@](#): > > An expanding federal investigation into corruption and fraud in Las Vegas-area condominium homeowners associations has resulted in 14 more guilty pleas, bringing total convictions to 26 so far, the Las Vegas Review-Journal reports. > > Four retired Las Vegas police officers – two of them captains – are among the conspirators who have pleaded guilty in the scheme and a related bank-fraud case, says the Review-Journal. ]([http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/06/26-now-guilty-in-las-vegas-hoa-corruption-fraud-scandal/1#.URlKkqXZzGI](http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/06/26-now-guilty-in-las-vegas-hoa-corruption-fraud-scandal/1#.URlKkqXZzGI)) ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/50 "2013-02-11T20:41:46Z")
If you’re the type of person that obsesses over whether their neighbors have junk in their yard, paint their house a weird color, or have signs in their yard then maybe a HOA is for you. Hopefully the HOA board’s views and yours will always coincide. Otherwise I’d stay far away, you don’t need yet another level of people telling taking your money and using it to tell you what to do. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/51 "2013-02-11T21:20:04Z")
> [@DMark](#): > > Our neighbors painted their house green - a no-no for HOA… That depends entirely on the HOA. Mine’s pretty laid-back. My own house ins a dark beige, but has bright orange-red trim. The house to my right is white, the one to my left is a green-gray with maroon trim, and down the street we have a chocolate brown house with white trim, and another hose that’s pale blue. Someone would have to paint their house a truly outrageous color to upset my HOA. Of course, that could change in the future - but the same can be said of municipal ordinances. If a community is very conformist, they’ll find a way to enforce their expectations even without the aid of a HOA. ---
**Author:** ![Hakuna\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hakuna\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hakuna_Matata)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/52 "2013-02-11T23:30:13Z")
Wow. We are in a nice little HOA but we only have like 40 houses here, and they are all on 2 1/2 to 5 acre lots, so I can’t even seen my neighbors because the houses are all buried in the woods. But there isn’t any regulations on house styles, siding, roof, etc. No gates or anything like that, but just a rural HOA. Our HOA seems pretty tame, most of the people have been here like 20+ years (we moved in 2 1/2 years ago), but I haven’t seen any of the stuff people seem to associate with an HOA. Probably just lucky. We pay like $100 annually and this takes care of upkeep of the entry sign, and a few other items. Right before we moved in there was an assessment of $300 annually for 3 years to pay for repaving the road through the development (it is a private road). The only item I recall was some guy put up a business sign in front of his house and they asked him to take it down as that is specifically spelled out in the HOA. He also planted some trees too close to the repaved road, and although they are small now, once they get big, the roots will tear up the road. Again those actions seem reasonable to me for an HOA to take. To me it is a nice peaceful little area and although if I had my druthers I would prefer no HOA, if I have to have one I am okay with the one I have. But I imagine our HOA functions as they should, make sure the common areas are clean and enforce simple rules we all agreed to upon buying in here. The ones outlined in this thread sound like nightmares of little Napoleon complex folks with too much time on their hands. The vast majority of folks in this neighborhood are retired but they seem to have no wish to be busy bodies, we meet once a year, and the board meets quarterly (you can attend if you want). I attend the once a year thing cause it is free burgers and I like my neighbors. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/53 "2013-02-12T00:07:20Z")
The worst abuse of an HOA I’ve ever read about was the Michael Clauer case of Frisco, TX. He was in the service and left his wife behind in their $300k+ home. She was either incredibly lazy, depressed or incompetent, but for whatever reason, she fell behind in her HOA dues to the tune of $800. After letters threatening foreclosure, which the homeowner ignored, they actually did just that. Mark DiSanti bought it at auction for a measly $3200. It wasn’t the first bargain he’d acquired through these means: "In each of his four cases, the homeowners associations foreclosed on the homes, which were then bought by DiSanti. Certified letters sent to the homeowners went unclaimed. DiSanti later re-sold their house for $135,000. There’s a silver lining because they did get their home back after suing the HOA. But it will literally take an act of Congress to stop the Mark DiSanti’s of the world from continuing to take advantage of such liberal laws in the state of Texas. > **[Frisco Soldier Gets Home Back After HOA Foreclosure](https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/frisco-soldier-gets-home-back-after-hoa-foreclosure/2121160/)** > > The Frisco soldier and his family who lost their home to foreclosure while he was serving in Iraq will get the house back. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/54 "2013-02-12T01:18:09Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > It depends. Some developments have common property, such as roads, swimming pools, elevators, etc., which must be maintained. In those cases there is no reasonable alternative to an HOA. For example, in a high rise condo building, it is the HOA fees that pays for the maintainance of the elevators because they belong jointly to all the residents. Yep when there are common areas like condos, etc we do have Body Corporates, pretty much the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/55 "2013-02-12T13:07:59Z")
Penn and Teller did an episode of Bullshit on homeowners’ associations. They featured a guy whose HOW required him to maintain a lawn featuring a species if grass unsuited to the local ecosystem. His lawn kept dying and kept paying fines and paying for replanting. But the association ignored the evidence that they were asking him to do the impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/56 "2013-02-12T13:30:09Z")
I despise HOAs, but the house I’m buying next month has one. I couldn’t find a decent house at a decent price in this area which didn’t have an HOA. Luckily, the fees are only fifty bucks a year- and they’re _voluntary_. I have no idea how that works- does anyone voluntarily pay more money? Supposedly we have to run any modifications to the house past the board, but with no required annual fees, how much of a board can there be? Looking over their rules, there’s not much on there that I object to, but still… ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/57 "2013-02-12T15:33:58Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Penn and Teller did an episode of Bullshit on homeowners’ associations. They featured a guy whose HOW required him to maintain a lawn featuring a species if grass unsuited to the local ecosystem. His lawn kept dying and kept paying fines and paying for replanting. But the association ignored the evidence that they were asking him to do the impossible. How did the other homeowners manage? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/58 "2013-02-12T15:40:50Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > How did the other homeowners manage? They got lucky with whatever combination of soil, moisture, sunlight was in their particular yards. Seriously, at some point when a guy has done every possible thing to replant his lawn – this was someone who could afford it – a rational entity would conclude that this just isn’t going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/59 "2013-02-12T17:27:01Z")
I got a kick out of this story because I used to live within walking distance of this development, and have driven and biked past it on Belle Haven Blvd. hundreds of times. I used to know (though not very well) one of the people quoted in the article. All I can say is, that HOA went apeshit, and enough residents must’ve been on their side in order for them to get away with increasing dues from $650/year to $3,500/year just to cover the legal fees, albeit unsuccessfully. They had no sense of proportion, just didn’t know when to stop. How do you _not_ say, “this fight just isn’t worth a six-figure legal bill”? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887/60 "2013-02-12T17:32:42Z")
Is it anywhere near Belle Haven Marina? I used to rent sailboats there and lounge out on the Potomac. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-owners-assoc-bankrupts-itself-over-size-limit-of-election-poster-in-a-yard/649887.md?page=4)