# Home sellers are selfish **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 11, 2018, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003 "2018-05-11T17:50:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2018, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003/81 "2018-05-14T18:27:18Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > Young people are dealing with an economy that has been hostile to labor for decades now (which means their Parents are in less of a position to help and they themselves are struggling), with high housing prices even after they cratered a decade ago where jobs are all contract with little security. Forgive them for being frustrated and try to remember what its like when you were starting out and trying to build a life. The nastiness and dismissiveness is unpleasant in this thread. The “dismissiveness”, though, if for one thing mostly: unreasonable expectations on the part of these _particular_ young people. If there was ever a time when the average young couple just starting out could have _expected_ to simply buy, right off the bat, a house in a “cool” area, it was a long, long time ago … though I suppose a lot depends on where exactly they choose to live. Most older folks remember having to do stuff like rent an apartment for a long time to build up a down payment, buy a “starter” property (in a not-so-cool area), gradually build up equity until they could finally, after many years of scrimping and saving, buy (if they were lucky and persistent) the place they actually wanted in the place they liked … and some of course prioritized other uses for money, and so rented all the time. To be angry that existing homeowners don’t enable one’s clueless entitlement merits a certain amount of “dismissiveness”. ---
**Author:** ![Wednesday\_Evening](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b2d939/32.png) [@Wednesday\_Evening](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wednesday_Evening)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2018, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003/82 "2018-05-14T19:20:00Z")
I googled the median home value in Columbus and it’s $145k. In my city, that’s roughly the same as a 20% down payment for the median home value (about $700k). I don’t see what this kid is complaining about. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003/83 "2018-05-14T19:39:03Z")
Increasing local taxes on buildings left empty could also be part of the solution. I’m in the generation that’s pretty well blocked out of the housing market here- it’s all very well saying ‘scrimp and save’ but when the house prices can rise faster in a year than than my gross annual wage, that’s not a solution. No matter how many avocados I don’t eat. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2018, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003/84 "2018-05-14T19:55:17Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > Increasing local taxes on buildings left empty could also be part of the solution. > > I’m in the generation that’s pretty well blocked out of the housing market here- it’s all very well saying ‘scrimp and save’ but when the house prices can rise faster in a year than than my gross annual wage, that’s not a solution. No matter how many avocados I don’t eat. Yeah, but the difference is that this is a _legitimate_ concern: that houses are simply beyond the means of the average middle class person any more (though again, that simply means that one is incentivized to rent an apartment). As populations grow, maybe houses will become more of a luxury in most cities. There’s a reasonable debate over whether home-ownership really ought to be encouraged by policy, to bring it within the means of the average middle class earner, or whether this would result in unwanted effects (such as increasing urban sprawl) and so encouraging higher density is better. That of course depends on where you choose to live. Complaining that one can’t _immediately_ get a home in a “cool” neighborhood right off the bat, on the other hand (and blaming it on those greedy owners) isn’t raising so legitimate a concern. Such a position is more likely to create a certain amount of scorn, rather than debate. Even if that’s the only neighborhood in which one can buy _just the right kind_ of organic avocados. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2018, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003/85 "2018-05-14T20:51:46Z")
You know, I can finally click on that link without getting a subscription, and I noticed the OP left some facts out. Here’s the full letter, with the missing parts bolded: > [@](#): > > \*\*My fiancé and I have been looking for a house since January. The following are a few things that we have learned in the current market: > > • Cash is king. If you don’t have cash, don’t bother.\*\* > > • Sellers are selfish and greedy. They don’t care about your story or your struggle. They care about money with no strings attached. > > • No one cares about young couples trying to start their lives honestly and on their own. This market loves trust-fund babies and business owners looking to flip houses or make some money on an investment. > > \*\*• I don’t know what’s worse — the job industry where you can’t get a job without experience, but no one will hire you to get the experience or this housing market. > > • Don’t even think about offering list price. Go $50,000 over or don’t even submit the offer.\*\* > > If there are sellers out there willing to sell their house to a young couple trying to start their lives in a cool neighborhood, we’d love the opportunity to meet them. **But be assured we don’t have an extra $50,000 sitting around or straight cash. Just a preapproved finance letter and a dream.** Now I don’t agree with everything in that letter, but it certainly seems to me that OP is trying to push an agenda here. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003/86 "2018-05-15T18:51:03Z")
Aha, you’ve uncovered _my evil plan_. Except I don’t know what you’re getting hot and bothered about. **My fiancé and I have been looking for a house since January. The following are a few things that we have learned in the current market:** Oo, that changes _everything_. :dubious: Four months at most for a house search. The frustration must be _unbearable_. **Cash is king. If you don’t have cash, don’t bother.** The writer seems to be upset because she’s expected to make a substantial down payment on a house, while believing that a heartrending story of her and her fiance’s struggles ought to be enough. I haven’t heard of any housing market where you’re required to bring satchels of freshly-printed $100 bills to the closing. \*\* I don’t know what’s worse — the job industry where you can’t get a job without experience, but no one will hire you to get the experience or this housing market.\*\* I left that quote out because of its stunning irrelevance, but it probably reflects additional cluelessness of a person who majored in Classical Art and Architecture and wonders why she can’t get a high-paying entry-level job in the computer or financial sectors. **Don’t even think about offering list price. Go $50,000 over or don’t even submit the offer.** My local paper runs home sale info all the time where people paid less than list price, though not in the preferred “cool” neighborhoods. **But be assured we don’t have an extra $50,000 sitting around or straight cash. Just a preapproved finance letter and a dream.** See above. Plenty of sellers would be delighted to sell their house to someone approved for a housing loan. If there are a dozen people competing for a hot hot property, they’ll be less impressed. So much for my “agenda”. ---
**Author:** ![xizor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xizor/32/102_2.png) [@xizor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xizor)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003/87 "2018-05-15T19:22:54Z")
I have sold 3 houses in my life, and I have never met any of the buyers. They were just names and offers on a piece of paper. I picked the biggest number. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003/88 "2018-05-15T19:50:07Z")
We have a similar issue in rural areas where alot of outside investors want to invest in land. So somebody from California can brag about his South Dakota farm. This often works to inflate land values way higher than they should be and keeps many young farmers from starting out and keeps current farmers from being able to expand their operations. We had some property just behind ours that was supposed to have been sold at public auction but an investor made a deal with agents and they got it. With of course, a land management contract. There are many areas where nobody who lives there, owns the land. They just work for the people who do. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003/89 "2018-05-16T00:55:28Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > \ > We’ve learned very little from 2008. We really haven’t. I guess that’s what happens when there really aren’t any consequences for the people who caused the economic collapse. > [@wolfpup](#): > > \ > And I have zero sympathy for mercenaries who are responsible for prime real estate actually sitting empty while people scramble for a place to live. It was recently reported that London currently has some 20,000 homes worth over $12 billion sitting empty, many of them owned by speculators waiting for higher prices (including many foreign ones who never had any intention of living there), while homelessness in the city had risen 54% in the previous six years. That, too, can be technically described as “the market working as it should”. Hmm, I see a business opportunity here - a break on your taxes if you hire people to live in your empty property? A new type of occupation - literally occupation! > [@Brayne\_Ded](#): > > It’s a worldwide thing and not just in the Yew Ess of Eh. Too little housing being built, wealthy investors buying up bargains, the average Joe not having enough money. The solution? Up to a point, build more housing. But build the sort that people need. These days there is an increasing need, worldwide, or at least in the developed countries, for housing for childless couples, singles and single parents. Also for retirees. Interestingly, people living with no children in their homes are the majority in Canada (I don’t know how the US compares). > [@Malthus](#): > > \There’s a reasonable debate over whether home-ownership really ought to be encouraged by policy, to bring it within the means of the average middle class earner, or whether this would result in unwanted effects (such as increasing urban sprawl) and so encouraging higher density is better. > \ There is indeed - I own a house, but as someone who considers herself ecologically responsible, I have a feeling I shouldn’t. I _should_ be living in a high-density complex. It’s hypocritical of me to recommend everyone else live in high-density housing when I don’t want to do it myself. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003/90 "2018-05-16T00:59:41Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Aha, you’ve uncovered _my evil plan_. > > Except I don’t know what you’re getting hot and bothered about. Perhaps their current market is not your current market? Not that I don’t think they are jerks, but in my market there is often bidding on houses, almost all of them sell for over the listing price, and if you bid only the asking price (or less) you are going to lose. Lots of sellers like cash because there is no risk of something going wrong with a loan. And unless you are going to be starting with Google or Facebook, lots of starting salaries are nowhere close to letting you afford a house. So if they were looking in my market, I feel for them. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003/91 "2018-05-16T03:08:49Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > I’ve heard of this, but as a seller it would make no difference to me. I don’t give a tinker’s dam what you do with the place after you buy it. Want to bulldoze it and dynamite the hole? Surgically nuke it from orbit? Give me a better offer than the other guy and have at it! If it’s a really hot seller’s market, it might. Let’s say you get 2 offers for roughly the same amount of money, and both are well qualified. Wouldn’t you be tempted to go for the feel-good one? When we sold our townhouse back in 2002 (during the middle of the crazy housing bubble runup), we had 3 offers on the place the weekend it was listed. One of the offers included a note like that. Now, the real reason we sold it to that buyer was that their offer had an escalation clause that topped the second best by 1,000 dollars… but it did feel nice. Had both been equal, we might have gone for it on that basis. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003/92 "2018-05-16T03:25:49Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > …in my market there is often bidding on houses, almost all of them sell for over the listing price, and if you bid only the asking price (or less) you are going to lose. As I indicated earlier, that’s an unusual situation here. I see that for the year so far, central Ohio homes (this includes Columbus and the surrounding area) have a median sale price around $11,000 less than the original price when the home went on the market. > [@](#): > > Perhaps their current market is not your current market? Evidently. I think their angst level (and prospective debt) would be lowered considerably if they weren’t quite so picky about where to live. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003/93 "2018-05-16T05:06:14Z")
LOL these poor Millenials have taken more of a beating from grouchy old people than any generation I can remember in my lifetime. 😃 There is ONE disturbing trend in real estate I have noticed as a non-Millennial house hunter: bad flippers. I’ve been to at least 3 showings over the past 8 months where I found out the house was a “flip”. Upon close inspection, the work was either shoddy or in one case, unfinished. Researching these houses, they were being listed 50-60% more than they were bought 6-18 months ago, and it was clear the sellers didn’t put anywhere close to that amount of money into the house and were trying to make a quick buck or recapture a poor investment. Unfortunately, the market is so hot here some sucker ends up buying these houses at inflated prices. I respect a house flipper that makes a substantial investment to improve a property, does quality work to improve that house and earns a profit from their effort; I don’t appreciate being insulted. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003/94 "2018-05-16T06:12:17Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > LOL these poor Millenials have taken more of a beating from grouchy old people than any generation I can remember in my lifetime. 😃 > > There is ONE disturbing trend in real estate I have noticed as a non-Millennial house hunter: bad flippers. I’ve been to at least 3 showings over the past 8 months where I found out the house was a “flip”. Upon close inspection, the work was either shoddy or in one case, unfinished. Researching these houses, they were being listed 50-60% more than they were bought 6-18 months ago, and it was clear the sellers didn’t put anywhere close to that amount of money into the house and were trying to make a quick buck or recapture a poor investment. > > Unfortunately, the market is so hot here some sucker ends up buying these houses at inflated prices. I respect a house flipper that makes a substantial investment to improve a property, does quality work to improve that house and earns a profit from their effort; I don’t appreciate being insulted. I would vastly prefer a dated old house with original everything (and a price to match) to a house that has been renovated by either untalented amateurs or house flippers. Maybe update the plumbing; I’m not sure about the electrical, because there is so much potential for amateur electrical work to be disastrous. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003/95 "2018-05-16T13:19:07Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > We have a similar issue in rural areas where alot of outside investors want to invest in land. So somebody from California can brag about his South Dakota farm. This often works to inflate land values way higher than they should be and keeps many young farmers from starting out and keeps current farmers from being able to expand their operations. We had some property just behind ours that was supposed to have been sold at public auction but an investor made a deal with agents and they got it. With of course, a land management contract. There are many areas where nobody who lives there, owns the land. They just work for the people who do. In southern Ontario, there is an even more extreme version of this: urban people buy up farms, but have no intention of farming (even by proxy as it were), but rather intend the properties purely as vacation destinations. Actual working farms are rapidly disappearing except in really productive areas. Often, there are in effect two populations - the original farmers, whose ancestors creating the network of what had been family farms in the first place, and urban recreational land users - and the two often have nothing to do with each other. In some cases, the urbanites hardly even realize farmers still exist! Amusing anecdote - north of Barrie, Ontario there is a fancy restaurant attached to a golf course called “The Settler’s Ghost”. It is quite expensive and caters, of course, to the urban crowd … the name, it states on the menu, is a tribute to the now-vanished farmers who originally settled the area. [https://www.golfnorth.ca/settlersghost/settlersghost-restaurant/](https://www.golfnorth.ca/settlersghost/settlersghost-restaurant/) This would I’m sure feel like a bit of a ‘mixed’ tribute to those farmers who have not actually vanished yet … but then, they are unlikely to ever go to such a place. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003/96 "2018-05-16T15:26:47Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > If it’s a really hot seller’s market, it might. Let’s say you get 2 offers for roughly the same amount of money, and both are well qualified. Wouldn’t you be tempted to go for the feel-good one? Not I. Highest offer wins, period. I really mean it when I say I could not care less what happens to the property after it’s no longer mine. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003/97 "2018-05-16T15:32:19Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Pre-approval means the bank took a really brief look at your financials and said ‘yeah, we don’t rule out a loan at that amount’ - usually it just requires something like looking at your income and maybe a basic credit check. It doesn’t mean that the bank is actually willing to loan you that amount, just that they don’t entirely rule you out. Pre-2008 there wasn’t much risk of not getting approved, on the off chance that you couldn’t get a ‘real’ mortgage they’d get you one of the shady ones. Now they’re a lot tighter on it, and they need a LOT more documents for a real mortgage than pre-approval. When I repatriated from China, my mortgage company offered a neat program: pre-underwriting. I submitted absolutely everything I needed to have a loan completely approved, other than the title search and appraisal, which came after selecting the house. Fastest closing ever (for a non-cash deal). In a lot of ways, it was kind of like those online car loan sites, where they’d send you a blank check valid up to a certain value. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003/98 "2018-05-16T16:32:30Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > Not I. Highest offer wins, period. I really mean it when I say I could not care less what happens to the property after it’s no longer mine. All other things being equal, I’d be less likely to take the offer with a sob story included. It stinks of manipulation to me. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003/99 "2018-05-16T16:58:27Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Pre-approval means the bank took a really brief look at your financials and said ‘yeah, we don’t rule out a loan at that amount’ - usually it just requires something like looking at your income and maybe a basic credit check. It doesn’t mean that the bank is actually willing to loan you that amount, just that they don’t entirely rule you out. Pre-2008 there wasn’t much risk of not getting approved, on the off chance that you couldn’t get a ‘real’ mortgage they’d get you one of the shady ones. Now they’re a lot tighter on it, and they need a LOT more documents for a real mortgage than pre-approval. There’s actually a lot of levels to “pre-approval” and there’s no real standard for what it means. It can mean everything from “Your credit score is 720 and you claim to make $10,000 a month so you should be good” to “We’ve fully underwritten your credit, income, and assets. You can buy a house with up to $X price as long as appraisal and title are good.” ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2018, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003/100 "2018-05-16T17:13:25Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > In southern Ontario, there is an even more extreme version of this: urban people buy up farms, but have no intention of farming (even by proxy as it were), but rather intend the properties purely as vacation destinations. Actual working farms are rapidly disappearing except in really productive areas. > > Often, there are in effect two populations - the original farmers, whose ancestors creating the network of what had been family farms in the first place, and urban recreational land users - and the two often have nothing to do with each other. > > In some cases, the urbanites hardly even realize farmers still exist! Wait. What do they do with the acreage? Let it grow fallow and generate weeds in the neighboring farms? Convert it into lawn? Pretend it doesn’t exist? > [@](#): > > Amusing anecdote - north of Barrie, Ontario there is a fancy restaurant attached to a golf course called “The Settler’s Ghost”. It is quite expensive and caters, of course, to the urban crowd … the name, it states on the menu, is a tribute to the now-vanished farmers who originally settled the area. > > [https://www.golfnorth.ca/settlersghost/settlersghost-restaurant/](https://www.golfnorth.ca/settlersghost/settlersghost-restaurant/) > > This would I’m sure feel like a bit of a ‘mixed’ tribute to those farmers who have not actually vanished yet … but then, they are unlikely to ever go to such a place. 😉 This definitely brings [Monty Python](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grbSQ6O6kbs) to mind. But it seems less funny IRL. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/home-sellers-are-selfish/814003.md?page=6)