# Homeland Security Detain UK Government Minister- of course he is Muslim **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2007, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377 "2007-10-28T22:34:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377/21 "2007-10-30T00:22:52Z")
[QUOTE=Pjen] Or that Homeland Security is inherently racist. [/QUOTE] Based on a biased minister’s sample size of…three? I have no idea if “Homeland Security” is inherently racist, but it might be interesting for you to actually read up on what DHS is, if you did you would realize it is an enormous bureaucratic umbrella department that encompasses many Federal agencies that were once under other umbrellas. I tend to think it is a bureaucratic dragon of such immense size one would be foolish to characterize it as _anything_ on a holistic level since so many of its underlying agencies are so very different from one another. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377/22 "2007-10-30T00:30:15Z")
If I were Muslim I think I’d be madder at the folks who perpetrate violence in the name of Islam than at people trying to protect the public. If I were a security guard and saw a group with Muslim-sounding names travelling together I’d be extra cautious as well. Profiling will stop when the heads of Islamic countries stop threatening to anihilate westerners and people in the street stop dancing in glee when westerners are targeted. ---
**Author:** ![Rockrz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/90db22/32.png) [@Rockrz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rockrz)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377/23 "2007-10-30T00:45:23Z")
[QUOTE=Pjen] Or that Homeland Security is inherently racist. [/QUOTE] No, Homeland Security is expected to attempt to keep terrorists out of the country…and muslims make up about 99% of the world’s terrorists because the koran tells them to kill those that don’t convert! It’s not a matter of singling anybody out, it’s a matter of listening to what they say in their religion…which lets you know what they are planning because they openly discuss killing those that refuse to convert to islam. Lovely religion, isn’t it??? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377/24 "2007-10-30T01:58:37Z")
[QUOTE=DanBlather] If I were Muslim I think I’d be madder at the folks who perpetrate violence in the name of Islam than at people trying to protect the public. If I were a security guard and saw a group with Muslim-sounding names travelling together I’d be extra cautious as well. [/QUOTE] Stopping a “group with Muslim-sounding names travelling together” would appear to be a clear sign of incompetence on the part of the security people. Every time a group has been stopped, they have been innocent of any ill intent and no “group . . . travelling together” has ever launched an attack. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377/25 "2007-10-30T02:05:08Z")
[QUOTE=Rockrz] No, Homeland Security is expected to attempt to keep terrorists out of the country…and muslims make up about 99% of the world’s terrorists because the koran tells them to kill those that don’t convert! [/quote] Piffle. Islamists (currently) make up the majority of terrorists in the world because following the end of the Cold War, the nations that have the most unresolved conflicts over land and power happen to have large Muslim populations among those perceived to be oppressed. (For example, when the same people were raising hell in the Philipines 30 years ago, they were “communists,” but with the fall of the U.S.S.R., now they have gone back to being “Muslims”–as they were prior to the Cold War.) [QUOTE=Rockrz] It’s not a matter of singling anybody out, it’s a matter of listening to what they say in their religion…which lets you know what they are planning because they openly discuss killing those that refuse to convert to islam. [/quote] A more or less valid point (if not exactly accurate) regarding the Wahabbist sect, but a gross over-generalization regarding Islam. In fact, it is a lovely religion, although one that does not particularly appeal to me. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377/26 "2007-10-30T02:06:05Z")
[QUOTE=chappachula] just a data point to add: It’s a common procedure on many domestic US flights to stop-and-do-a-search on _all_ passengers who have a ticket that connects with an international flight.\* So if most of the people in line are domestic-only travellers, the few who are going international are gonna get picked on. Not necessarily because of their skin color. \*no cite–but I’m speaking from personal experience, and once being told directly by the ticket agent that I would be singled out for extra attention. [/QUOTE] No cite either, but I’ve taken at least a dozen international flights in the last two years and have never been singled out for extra attention. If anyone told you that _all_ passengers were treated like this, well, that person misled you. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377/27 "2007-10-30T02:37:00Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Stopping a “group with Muslim-sounding names travelling together” would appear to be a clear sign of incompetence on the part of the security people. Every time a group has been stopped, they have been innocent of any ill intent and no “group . . . travelling together” has ever launched an attack. [/QUOTE] Aside from the four 9/11 flights of course. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377/28 "2007-10-30T02:50:05Z")
[QUOTE=DanBlather] Aside from the four 9/11 flights of course. [/QUOTE] Aside from no one. None of the nineteen hijackers on September 11 travelled as part of a group. That is why stopping groups is so stupid: the terrorists are already smart enough to avoid that action, so stopping groups merely penalizes people for being “the wrong sort” and makes them less likely to want to cooperate with the authorities. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377/29 "2007-10-30T03:33:08Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Aside from no one. None of the nineteen hijackers on September 11 traveled as part of a group. That is why stopping groups is so stupid: the terrorists are already smart enough to avoid that action, so stopping groups merely penalizes people for being “the wrong sort” and makes them less likely to want to cooperate with the authorities. [/QUOTE] We must disagree in what traveling as a group means. On 9/11 groups of 3 or 4 terrorists boarded pre-arranged flights. They did not (as far as I know) go up to the ticket agent and say “Hey, me and Omar here are flying together”, but they were clearly part of “a group”. I travel on business with groups of colleagues all the time and we check in and board separately as well. In the case the OP is discussing, the black men with Muslim-sounding names were not associated with the Minister in any case. But still, if security sees a number of Muslim-looking men on a flight they not only have a right, they have an obligation, to think “what’s up?”. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377/30 "2007-10-30T04:53:26Z")
[QUOTE=DanBlather] We must disagree in what traveling as a group means. On 9/11 groups of 3 or 4 terrorists boarded pre-arranged flights. They did not (as far as I know) go up to the ticket agent and say “Hey, me and Omar here are flying together”, but they were clearly part of “a group”. I travel on business with groups of colleagues all the time and we check in and board separately as well. [/QUOTE] Then there was no way for the ticket people to identify them (or your traveling companions) as a “group.” They had seapate seats. They boarded individually without speaking to each other. Whatever excuse you might come up with for stopping anyone with a “Muslim sounding” name, (like Anne Mary Murphy), pulling aside identifiable groups is dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377/31 "2007-10-30T06:12:21Z")
FWIW, I get stopped by these folks every single time I come to the US. Last summer I had 6 flights around the US and was “randomly selected” on every one of them plus when I arrived. Not a big deal. They swipe their swabs, have me boot my PC, run me through the metal detector and I’m on my way. Sometimes I get the “air-booth” as well. As an OBTW, I’m extremely light complexioned, not a Muslim, and my name is very common in Western countries. OTOH, my passport is absolutely FULL of Arabic stamps from just about every country around here. If Mr. Minister was detained for 40 minutes I would bet it was because he assumed he was exempt and started giving the inspectors a bad time when he discovered he wasn’t. Things can take a while when you do that. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377/32 "2007-10-30T13:46:48Z")
[QUOTE=Rockrz] …and muslims make up about 99% of the world’s terrorists . . . [/quote] I don’t think that’s true, actually. [QUOTE=Rockrz] . . .because the koran tells them to kill those that don’t convert! [/QUOTE] Nor that. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377/33 "2007-10-30T14:42:54Z")
What’s the point of searching people if nobody’s allowed to search the people most likely to be part of a hijacking plot? I’m all for going back to the good ole’ days when nobody really looked at anyone’s baggage, but if we’re going to make a big visible security increase gesture, we might as well make it a little effective. So are the screeners supposed to do a deep background check to make sure that the people they’re profiling aren’t political leaders? Count me unimpressed by minister whats-his-face’s crying. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377/34 "2007-10-30T15:08:36Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I don’t think that’s true, actually. > [@Rockrz](#): > > . . .because the koran tells them to kill those that don’t convert! Nor that. [/QUOTE] Actually, it is. [ > [@](#): > > IV.89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. > > IX. 5-6: Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them. ]([~~|~~ Is Islam Violent?  What The Koran says. (This is the Printer-Friendly version) ~~](http://nowscape.com/islam/islam_printer_friendly.htm)) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377/35 "2007-10-30T15:31:22Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Actually, it is. [/QUOTE] See, this is the problem with those “OMG LOOK AT THE EVIL CITES!” type pages. No context! (and actually I think I recognise the first one, so maybe it’s a popular site? > [@](#): > > [4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. > [4.90] Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them. So yes, you should kill them… if you haven’t formed an alliance with you, or who aren’t fighting you or themselves. So self-defence, in fact. Rather an important omission for the next line along. As for your second cite, that appears to be rather a short line for apparently two verses. Not that I wish to question the translation, or anything. Anyway, here’s the appropriate parts in the version i’ve found; > [@](#): > > [9.3] And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve. > [9.4] Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty). > [9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. > [9.6] And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know. > [9.7] How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Apostle; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty). Again, it would seem, you don’t get to kill people with whom you have agreements. Or if they want protection and aren’t fighting. Or are true to you and don’t fight you. So, again, self-defence, and even then it would seem this is only talking about a specific time; you get to defend yourself against people who try and stop you “on the day of the greater pilgramage”. Now I have no doubt that there are verses in the Koran which say “Yes, go, kill those bastards over there!”. But these are not those verses. You’re a religious guy, right? I’m sure you know the problems of people quoting things out of context. Try again. Here, [this](http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/) is the Koran i’m using, go wild. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377/36 "2007-10-30T15:44:20Z")
[QUOTE=China Guy] Not quite sure what the “detention” was. I mean, I’ve been stopped by Homeland Security, and gone through the whole wipe and analysis thing. It takes a while, and during it I was “technically detained”, which meant standing around while they opened my luggage, wiped down surfaces with a little white cloth thing, and then analyzed it for something. [/QUOTE] I pretty much get stopped on every flight as well (hispanic male with wierd Greek name) and I’m not even a Muslim. Hell, maybe they stop agnostics too…we are pretty dangerous. It’s a pain in the ass, especially for me…but I think it’s a reasonable price to pay for our airliners not betting blown apart or flowing into buildings. -XT ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377/37 "2007-10-30T16:01:09Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Actually, it is. [/quote] Actually, it is not–unless you wish to assert that Judaism is a religion that insists on genocide and ethnic cleansing or that Christianity is a religion that demands that everyone hate their spouse and children and parents and siblings. [If one reads for comprehension in context instead of cherry-picking the lines that let one deliberately misunderstand what has been written,](http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544502) one finds no claims in the Qur’an that people who are not Muslim are to be forced to convert under pain of death or that Muslims are to murder unbelievers. [Deuteronomy 7 1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:]([Dt 7: 1 - 2 KJV - When the LORD thy God shall bring thee - Bible Gateway](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=dt%207:%201%20-%202&version=9)) [Numbers 31 17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.]([Num 31:17 - 18 KJV - Now therefore kill every male among the - Bible Gateway](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=num%2031:17%20-%2018&version=9)) [Luke 14 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=14&verse=26&version=9&context=verse) ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377/38 "2007-10-30T16:27:41Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] What’s the point of searching people if nobody’s allowed to search the people most likely to be part of a hijacking plot? I’m all for going back to the good ole’ days when nobody really looked at anyone’s baggage, but if we’re going to make a big visible security increase gesture, we might as well make it a little effective. So are the screeners supposed to do a deep background check to make sure that the people they’re profiling aren’t political leaders? Count me unimpressed by minister whats-his-face’s crying. [/QUOTE] All we do by assuming that brown people with Muslim-sounding names are the likely terrorists is to ensure that, when the next bunch of _real_ terrorists show up, they will be white with western-sounding names. So OK - it wasn’t a bunch of Canadian potato farmers that attacked the US on 9/11, sure. But this “profiling” approach is counterproductive. And yeah, I do think that affording some respect to the government officials of one’s allies is probably a decent idea. Even Muslims like, er, “Minister whats-his-face”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377/39 "2007-10-30T16:29:19Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Actually, it is not–unless you wish to assert that Judaism is a religion that insists on genocide and ethnic cleansing or that Christianity is a religion that demands that everyone hate their spouse and children and parents and siblings. [/quote] So this is your defense - the Jews do it too? That’s pretty silly. But if you can cite an instance from the last twenty years or so when a significant proportion of the Jews of the world attempted genocide on Hittites or Jerubites based on this verse as the Islamo-fascists have been attempting terrorism based on the Koran, I will be glad to address this _tu quoque_ seriously. > [@](#): > > [9.3] And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve. > [9.4] Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, Not quite - what the passage is saying is that you should “announce a painful punishment to those who disbelieve” except during the period during which they cooperate with you. Then, once the agreement is up, and they refuse to convert, you can kill them. IOW, what is being discussed is an exception to the default, which is to kill those who refuse to convert or submit. As mentioned. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377/40 "2007-10-30T16:39:48Z")
[QUOTE=PaulParkhead] All we do by assuming that brown people with Muslim-sounding names are the likely terrorists is to ensure that, when the next bunch of _real_ terrorists show up, they will be white with western-sounding names. So OK - it wasn’t a bunch of Canadian potato farmers that attacked the US on 9/11, sure. But this “profiling” approach is counterproductive. And yeah, I do think that affording some respect to the government officials of one’s allies is probably a decent idea. Even Muslims like, er, “Minister whats-his-face”. [/QUOTE] Then the next bunch of terrorists will say they are Ministers from England and have Muslim sounding names so that we are afraid to search them in case we look “racist”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-detain-uk-government-minister-of-course-he-is-muslim/424377.md?page=3)