# Homeland Security plans to buy 1 Billion bullets
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [September 30, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012 "2013-09-30T16:10:32Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@ruben4ruben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruben4ruben)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012/1 "2013-09-30T16:10:32Z")
> **[1.6 Billion Rounds Of Ammo For Homeland Security? It's Time For A National...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphbenko/2013/03/11/1-6-billion-rounds-of-ammo-for-homeland-security-its-time-for-a-national-conversation/)**
>
> It's time for President Obama to practice what he preaches.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/Gvc__urKl88?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque
Excerpt:
> [@](#):
>
> …some of this purchase order is for hollow-point rounds, forbidden by international law for use in war, along with a frightening amount specialized for snipers. Also reported elsewhere, at the height of the Iraq War the Army was expending less than 6 million rounds a month. Therefore 1.6 billion rounds would be enough to sustain a hot war for 20+ years in America.
Yes, enough bullets for a 20 year war. Yes, some of them are hollow point rounds. (expensive and not used for target practice)
Also;
> [@](#):
>
> Add to this perplexing outré purchase of ammo, DHS now is showing off its acquisition of heavily armored personnel carriers, repatriated from the Iraqi and Afghani theaters of operation
Apparently these vehicles have gun-ports as well.
Seems to me this is something to be discussed at least. Or is this all out of context or proportion? They claim it’s a bulk buy for efficiency reasons. Still, hollow points are a very strange purchase for home security forces…
Anyone care to comment or did i miss a previous post?
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### Author:  [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012/2 "2013-09-30T16:13:27Z")
If the government declares war on the people, the people lose. Period. So I hope what you’re implying is wrong.
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### Author:  [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012/3 "2013-09-30T16:17:09Z")
Honestly, hollow points don’t bother me too much. They are the most useful to avoid secondary casualties as they fragment and dissipate energy on contact with the first target it hits. There are **some** things they can hit and still continue through, like thin doors, but if you get into a firefight, shooting hollow points greatly reduces the possibility of the round going through something. If not the body of the person you are aiming at, but the brick wall or car door or whatnot behind them. If it fragments into the wall, it doesn’t hurt anyone. If it goes THROUGH the wall, it can hit someone on the other side that is either hiding from or doesn’t even know the situation is going on.
Sniper rounds are also not terribly troublesome. If you get any heavily armed and/or armored person or a hostage situation, one or two sniper rounds can make all the difference.
The thing I have trouble understanding are the APCs. There are very few instances I can recall where a police cruiser’s engine compartment hasn’t been an effective shield against incoming fire. That [North Hollywood Shootout](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout) in LA 15 years ago was the only one from the top of my head (though I’m sure others can post some.)
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### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012/4 "2013-09-30T16:17:20Z")
Don’t law enforcement agencies often use hollow point bullets such as Federal Hydra Shok or some other brand?
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### Author:  [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012/5 "2013-09-30T16:18:39Z")
One simple response here -
> **[HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News](https://www.huffpost.com/?err_code=404&err_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2013%2F02%2F14%2Fhomeland-security-bullets_n_2688402.html)**
>
> Read the latest headlines, news stories, and opinion from Politics, Entertainment, Life, Perspectives, and more.
“Buying in bulk is cheaper” - the purchase is also over the course of several years, the majority is for training - and its not just for DHS but other agencies (ICE, for one) as well.
So, you fail on several points.
Wether or not that many rounds are needed, the ‘bulk pricing’ better, etc - is all secondary - I simply don’t see a conspiracy here - but its certainly fodder for ‘doomsday’ types.
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012/6 "2013-09-30T16:26:02Z")
Isn’t like the fifth or sixth time this “[Random government agency] is buying [Number of rounds that sounds high to me], some scary shit is about to go down” story has been peddled in the past, oh, 4 years, 8 months, and 9 days or so?
I don’t know how many DHS personnel handle firearms as a part of their jobs, but I seem to recall it having been readily established in the past that a single officer can be expected to go through tens of thousands of rounds a year just practicing at the range.
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### Author:  [@ruben4ruben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruben4ruben)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012/7 "2013-09-30T16:36:15Z")
Well, thanks for your answers. Now i understand it a lot better.
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### Author:  [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012/8 "2013-09-30T16:37:01Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> Isn’t like the fifth or sixth time this “[Random government agency] is buying [Number of rounds that sounds high to me], some scary shit is about to go down” story has been peddled in the past, oh, 4 years, 8 months, and 9 days or so?
>
> I don’t know how many DHS personnel handle firearms as a part of their jobs, but I seem to recall it having been readily established in the past that a single officer can be expected to go through tens of thousands of rounds a year just practicing at the range.
Yes - this has come up before. Has anyone found a cite that this is SOP? Like most of the conspiracies, I like to know if this is the same level of buying as under Bush Jr, for example. Helps clear the air.
Yes - hollow points are safer for urban ops - reduces killing others.
All I ask is that if that is the normal load out for cops to practice with, maybe we can stop freaking out when a civilian who practices buys a thousand rounds for themselves.
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### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012/9 "2013-09-30T16:44:23Z")
That’s nothing. The Indiana State Police issued a contract for more than a million rounds of ammunition – [cite.](http://www.in.gov/idoa/proc/recommendations/files/asa-12-038.pdf) That’s about 900 rounds for every sworn police officer they have.
Why would they be issuing so much ammunition, unless the Indiana State Police were planning either to: a) round of Hoosiers and put them in re-education camps; or b) invade Illinois?
Hey, I’m just asking questions.
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### Author:  [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012/10 "2013-09-30T17:42:59Z")
> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> That’s nothing. The Indiana State Police issued a contract for more than a million rounds of ammunition – [cite.](http://www.in.gov/idoa/proc/recommendations/files/asa-12-038.pdf) That’s about 900 rounds for every sworn police officer they have.
>
> Why would they be issuing so much ammunition, unless the Indiana State Police were planning either to: a) round of Hoosiers and put them in re-education camps; or b) invade Illinois?
>
> Hey, I’m just asking questions.
That is exactly the type of cite I was talking about.
Now, we just need to talk about the Indiana Police arsenal in every reference to it.
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### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012/11 "2013-09-30T17:55:39Z")
> [@DWMarch](#):
>
> If the government declares war on the people, the people lose. Period. So I hope what you’re implying is wrong.
What’s the government populated with? Space aliens? Cyborgs?
Our government has a hard enough time generating enough support to declare war on OTHER people.
Also, I think a decade of war in Iraq and Afghanistan has shown that having a shitload of bullets isn’t a slam-dunk when it comes to winning a war.
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### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012/12 "2013-09-30T19:16:13Z")
Ah, I see the last run on ammunition at stores must have started to slack off. Can’t let that happen, gotta whip 'em up to empty the shelves and keep prices high…
> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> That’s nothing. The Indiana State Police issued a contract for more than a million rounds of ammunition – [cite.](http://www.in.gov/idoa/proc/recommendations/files/asa-12-038.pdf) That’s about 900 rounds for every sworn police officer they have.
>
> Why would they be issuing so much ammunition, unless the Indiana State Police were planning either to: a) round of Hoosiers and put them in re-education camps; or b) invade Illinois?
>
> Hey, I’m just asking questions.
Or (c) they expect an invasion BY Illinois 😉
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### Author:  [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012/13 "2013-09-30T19:37:15Z")
This claim (or one very similar to it) was discussed on the JREF forum earlier this year:
> **[DHS Preparing For Civil War In The US? - International Skeptics Forum](http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253283)**
>
> DHS Preparing For Civil War In The US? Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
Of note is this post:
> **[DHS Preparing For Civil War In The US? - Page 2 - International Skeptics Forum](http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=9059409)**
>
> DHS Preparing For Civil War In The US? Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
which finds several cites that many agencies require their personnel to train and qualify with the same rounds they carry on the job, hence the use of hollowpoints for practice.
Also, note that this has also been discussed by the NRA:
> **[NRA-ILA | Federal Law Enforcement Agencies Buy Ammunition](https://www.nraila.org/articles/20120817/federal-law-enforcement-agencies-buy-ammunition)**
>
> You may recently have seen some in the Internet rumor mill feverishly repeating the obvious truth above, in an effort to stir up fear about recent acquisitions of ammunition by the Department of Homeland Security and a number of smaller agencies. The...
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### Author:  [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012/14 "2013-09-30T20:26:05Z")
To deal with a zombie outbreak? Or rage virus outbreak? Or “Trixie” crazy virus outbreak?
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### Author:  [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012/15 "2013-09-30T20:44:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> Isn’t like the fifth or sixth time this “[Random government agency] is buying [Number of rounds that sounds high to me], some scary shit is about to go down” story has been peddled in the past, oh, 4 years, 8 months, and 9 days or so?
Every time they buy, they have to buy _more_. Know why?
[spoiler]The [government agency] has STOPPED buying BULLETS!!!1!
They are stepping aside so UN forces can march you to FEMA death camps unopposed!!1![/spoiler]
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### Author:  [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012/16 "2013-09-30T20:51:08Z")
> [@msmith537](#):
>
> What’s the government populated with? Space aliens? Cyborgs?
Well, I was thinking along the lines of “irregulars” with AR-15 semi-autos versus Apache attack helicopters and Abrams tanks. I know which side my money is on.
The government (in the form of the military and security agencies) has the benefit of better training, supply lines and much heavier armament than any civilian has access to. Those who fantasize about a “second amendment solution” to government problems are in for a rude surprise if they ever try it.
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### Author:  [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012/17 "2013-09-30T20:53:14Z")
> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> That’s nothing. The Indiana State Police issued a contract for more than a million rounds of ammunition – [cite.](http://www.in.gov/idoa/proc/recommendations/files/asa-12-038.pdf) That’s about 900 rounds for every sworn police officer they have.
>
> Why would they be issuing so much ammunition, unless the Indiana State Police were planning either to: a) round of Hoosiers and put them in re-education camps; or b) invade Illinois?
>
> Hey, I’m just asking questions.
Hopefully b), but to ruin the joke, 900 rounds is a small amount for each officer, if you’re counting occasional range sessions.
Although if a), can we convince them that basketball sucks?
What are rounds “specialized for snipers”? .308? A round often used for deer?
As said above, “forbidden by international law for use in war” is an asinine statement, as the required for war FMJ bullets are usually illegal to hunt with. JHP is standard for urban applications, and used by most police forces. I would liken DHS to be closer to police than military, conspiracy theory aside.
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### Author:  [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012/18 "2013-09-30T20:56:23Z")
something something, death panels, appeals, something…
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### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012/19 "2013-09-30T22:07:00Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#):
>
> Hopefully b), but to ruin the joke, 900 rounds is a small amount for each officer, if you’re counting occasional range sessions.
By my estimate, that’s sufficient ammo to kill 2,700 people [Indiana Jones style.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONKYCF0GBxk#t=4m45s)
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### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeland-security-plans-to-buy-1-billion-bullets/670012/20 "2013-09-30T22:44:43Z")
> [@Horatius](#):
>
> Also, note that this has also been discussed by the NRA:
>
> [NRA-ILA | Federal Law Enforcement Agencies Buy Ammunition](http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/articles/2012/federal-law-enforcement-agencies-buy-ammunition.aspx)
This should be a go-to link to refer anyone vectoring the ammo-hoarding story. And notice it is from 2012, but this particular bit of panicmongering has been banging around for a while.
Jeesh, really, a couple of weeks ago we had a flap in the local press \*“OMG! FEMA is prepositioning gear and supplies! What are they not telling us?!?!?” \* Uh, guys, we are on an seismically active island chain, in the hurricane zone, a thousand miles from the US mainland. Why would they NOT preposition their gear and supplies?
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