# Homeopathy question **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 14, 2016, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092 "2016-01-14T00:43:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092/1 "2016-01-14T00:43:21Z")
Dunno how many homeopathic practitioners we have here, probably zero, but hopefully someone is familiar enough with it to explain this one to me. Right, so my understanding is that homeopathy’s basic idea is that water has ‘memory’, it can remember what has been put in it and amplifies its properties based on how diluted it is. So…I don’t wanna get too base, but if this idea is valid, aren’t we all drinking sewage? Given the amount of poo and pee that has been in water, it goes into the water treatment plant, evaporates, rains into the reservoir, dilution upon dilution… What’s their explanation for why 1:10000000 etc. dilutions of ‘medicines’ the water remembers, but not all the shite? ---
**Author:** ![CrabRangoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9e8a1a/32.png) [@CrabRangoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrabRangoon)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092/2 "2016-01-14T01:54:43Z")
Oh, silly human, why are you trying to apply logic and reason to woo? ---
**Author:** ![JerrySTL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e274bd/32.png) [@JerrySTL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerrySTL)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092/3 "2016-01-14T02:00:05Z")
Water forgets all the bad stuff. If we ever figure out how to extract the repressed memories in water, we are in BIG trouble. Even a chiropractor won’t be able to fix that one. ---
**Author:** ![Julius\_Henry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8797f3/32.png) [@Julius\_Henry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Julius_Henry)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092/4 "2016-01-14T03:04:25Z")
> [@JerrySTL](#): > > Water forgets all the bad stuff. If we ever figure out how to extract the repressed memories in water, we are in BIG trouble. Even a chiropractor won’t be able to fix that one. Does this mean that there can be no such thing as a homeopathic scientologist? ---
**Author:** ![Dioptre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/278dde/32.png) [@Dioptre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dioptre)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092/5 "2016-01-14T03:25:25Z")
Ok, I’m definitely not a homeopathic practitioner, but here’s my understanding of the internal logic … 1. It’s not just a matter of dilution. The process of creating a homeopathic preparation is intentional, and involves both dilution and succussion (originally, hitting it with a leather bible at each step). You don’t get the effect by accidental dilution, only by the rigorous process. 2. Like any system of belief, logical extrapolation just isn’t something they’re particularly interested in. To them it’s like an anti-vaxer saying “if vacinations work by producing anti-bodies, then how come it’s not just as bad getting vacinated as getting the disease”. For medical people, this is just frustrating. They don’t understand the mechanism, they can’t be bothered to understand the mechanism, they don’t even agree with the underlying science they’re extrapolating, but they want those who do to engage in their silly thought experiments? From the inside, it’s the same thing. The “everything must be ultra-strong fish excrement” argument is a logical extrapolation made by people who don’t agree with the logic they’re extrapolating. To homeopathic supporters it’s an intellectually dishonest thought experiment, not something to seriously discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092/6 "2016-01-14T03:30:08Z")
Even if it’s a stupid question – “If we evolved from apes, why are there still apes?” – it’s incumbent upon the homeopathic industry to explain its answer clearly. Saying, “Well, that isn’t how it works” is not answering the question. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092/7 "2016-01-14T03:36:01Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > . . . aren’t we all drinking sewage? Some ideas (like homeopathy) can also be “sewage” in your mind. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092/8 "2016-01-14T04:00:42Z")
They really don’t. Provide an explanation, I mean. Even if you ask a homeopath point blank, they do a bizarre dance around the question. Exhibit A: > [@](#): > > Best Answer: Ah ! So does ‘Homeophobia’ makes you ask the same question again and again Angrydoc ? :o) and should I give the same answer to your question, what I think is you are not looking for an answer you are just trying to spread bias nothing else. And can I ask have you ever tried any one homeopathic remedy in your life ? I am sure you have not. Phew. I seriously don’t think anyone who is angry all the time can be a healer. > And remember I am not here to fight anyone, I am a healer not a street fighter educated people don’t fight. > > ‘Homeophobia’ must not be toleratedHomeopathy should not be labelled a fraud. Those who study water know the critics are wrong, says Rustum Roy > > Ben Goldacre excoriates the practice of homeopathy (A kind of magic?, November 16). For the record, I have never studied or held a position for, or against, the clinical effectiveness of homeopathy. However, I am a materials chemist who has written one of the most cited papers in materials science, on aqueous solutions. > Having recently studied the extraordinary biological properties of ultradilute aquasols (water with one part per million of solid particles) and written a long review on the structure of water, I accidentally also discovered a new social disease, “homeophobia” - that is, a phobic reaction (mainly by scientists) to the word “homeopathy”, the virulence of which is exemplified by Goldacre. > > A major bugaboo for “homeophobes” is the concept that a solution where the solute is extremely diluted (beyond Avogadro’s number) absolutely cannot, they believe, be any different from the original solvent. Hence homeopathy must be a fraud. This has been the anti-homeopathy crowd’s trump card for more than 100 years. > > But let us turn to scientists who specialise in water’s properties. Prof Martin Chaplin of London’s South Bank University, a leading expert on the (molecular) structure of water, says: “Too often the final argument used against the memory of water concept is simply ‘I don’t believe it’ … Such unscientific rhetoric is heard from the otherwise sensible scientists, with a narrow view of the subject and without any examination or appreciation of the full body of evidence, and reflects badly on them.” > > As it happens, there is agreement among all those who have studied liquid water that it is, in fact, the critics, who are totally wrong. Proof? Diamond is the planet’s hardest material; graphite one of the softest. They are absolutely identical in composition, and they can be interconverted in a millisecond with zero change of composition. > > Prof Eugene Stanley of Boston University, the leading expert on the physics of water, has catalogued 64 highly anomalous property changes in pure water. According to the first law of materials science, that means that there must be the same large number of different structures in liquid water - what he called “polymorphism” of water. This year Prof Chaplin, in the journal Homeopathy, discussed in detail how water could retain a “memory”. > > But the main thrust of Goldacre’s argument is the role of the “placebo effect”. Yes, this works. And, yes, it is without doubt present in every homeopathic intervention; but it is far more powerfully present in orthodox medical pills because they are advertised so widely in billion-dollar campaigns. > > Goldacre is accurate in pointing out the high rates of positive v negative outcomes in many of the homeopathy studies. But there are enormous discrepancies in any set of randomised controlled trials on the same orthodox pills. > > Does Goldacre seriously suggest that a homeopathy paper with a positive outcome would be treated fairly in any mainstream journal? > > · Rustum Roy is Evan Pugh professor of the solid state, and research professor of materials at Arizona State University rroy@psu.edu > The above article is taken from :- [Comment, opinion and discussion from the Guardian US | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/)… > > Take care and spit out the anger before it seriously consumes and burn you mate. You know anger can be easily treated and cured using Homeopathic remedies :o) but then again you are not interested in curing you are intrested in feeding people drastic synthetic potions which you name “MEDICINE” . > Is’nt medicine something which should "CURE{ you and make you feel better when you are ailing ? Try taking antibiotics , they almost killed me while trying to and I repeat in trying to treat me for typhoid they failed on both accounts :o) Homeopathy prevailed and always will, and that is exactly what is bother the chemical pill pushers, and you are anrgy because of just that fact its a threat to the PHARMA 's livlihood. There is no doubt that homeopathy works and will go on doing so whether you want to believe it or not has got nothing to do with the fact. Sorry to take up your time now go and do what you are paid for “making people dependant on chemicals” . > > Take care [https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091029230420AAYlhOU](https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091029230420AAYlhOU) That’s…not unusual. That’s exactly the kind of response I’ve gotten from more than one homeopath in person. It’s dizzying. ---
**Author:** ![iljitsch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/77aa72/32.png) [@iljitsch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iljitsch)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092/9 "2016-01-14T07:52:08Z")
You are forgetting about the part where diluting makes the effect stronger. So you’d want to drink untreated sewage so it’s as weak as possible, not filter it because then the bad effects get stronger. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092/10 "2016-01-14T10:11:34Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Right, so my understanding is that homeopathy’s basic idea is that water has ‘memory’, it can remember what has been put in it and amplifies its properties based on how diluted it is. > > So…I don’t wanna get too base, but if this idea is valid, aren’t we all drinking sewage? Given the amount of poo and pee that has been in water, it goes into the water treatment plant, evaporates, rains into the reservoir, dilution upon dilution… > [@Dioptre](#): > > Ok, I’m definitely not a homeopathic practitioner, but here’s my understanding of the internal logic … > > 1. It’s not just a matter of dilution. The process of creating a homeopathic preparation is intentional, and involves both dilution and succussion (originally, hitting it with a leather bible at each step). You don’t get the effect by accidental dilution, only by the rigorous process. This is a valid point. One which I’ve made before. In the same vein: - Homoeopaths use several solvents. They usually use alcohol rather than water. - They preach the doctrine of opposites. That means that they think that the solvent turns into the \*opposite \*of what it held. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092/11 "2016-01-14T13:06:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Rustum Roy is Evan Pugh professor of the solid state, and research professor of materials at Arizona State University Well, Roy is dead but maybe his beliefs will grow stronger as his corporeal being disintegrates. Roy was heavily into the woo; among other things he believed in the fraud healer John of God. > **[Rustom Roy and Water Memory - NeuroLogica Blog](https://theness.com/neurologicablog/rustom-roy-and-water-memory/)** > > Recent the following question appeared in my Topic Suggestion thread: hi dr novella, though a little past the time of your debate with homeopaths at the University of Connecticut Health Center: A Debate: Homeopathy – Quackery Or A Key To The Future... > [@Peter Morris](#): > > This is a valid point. Only in the sense that it’s a valid explanation of the silliness that homeopaths embrace. The OP will probably want to run out and buy [this poster](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/wp-content/blogs.dir/445/files/2012/04/i-92a672cd86da55e00adcceb730bdb501-Homeopathy.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092/12 "2016-01-14T15:23:40Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Only in the sense that it’s a valid explanation of the silliness that homeopaths embrace. What did you think I meant? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092/13 "2016-01-14T16:00:09Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > - They preach the doctrine of opposites. That means that they think that the solvent turns into the \*opposite \*of what it held. No, [that’s the doctrine they ascribe to allopathic medicine](https://books.google.com/books?id=VsNXAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA2&lpg=PA2&dq=doctrine+of+opposites+homeopathy&source=bl&ots=VGpxbxoWUA&sig=kad-iNHKNBhR60fFI7oBp96zf_o&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjrspWZ1anKAhWBMSYKHXSRAJ8Q6AEIKjAC#v=onepage&q=doctrine%20of%20opposites%20homeopathy&f=false) - that you put cold on hot stuff and hot on cold stuff and treat constipation with purgatives, etc. Homeopaths claim the Doctrine of Signatures\*, the Law of Similars and that “like cures like”. If you have a fever with redness and sweating, you take a not-even-measurable dose of an herb or chemical that causes heat, redness and sweating in a large dose. The remedy chosen is one that, in a tea or tincture or spoonful, would cause the symptoms you’re trying to treat. This is classical homeopathy, and some homeopaths today are moving to include the opposites that their forefathers railed against, but the overwhelming zeitgeist in homeopathy is still the Law of Similars. \*That plants with attributes like the body part of a human will treat that body part. This is essentially a Rorschach of the practitioner, as humans are fantastic at finding similarities and ignoring differences when they want to. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092/14 "2016-01-14T18:15:21Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > No, [that’s the doctrine they ascribe to allopathic medicine](https://books.google.com/books?id=VsNXAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA2&lpg=PA2&dq=doctrine+of+opposites+homeopathy&source=bl&ots=VGpxbxoWUA&sig=kad-iNHKNBhR60fFI7oBp96zf_o&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjrspWZ1anKAhWBMSYKHXSRAJ8Q6AEIKjAC#v=onepage&q=doctrine%20of%20opposites%20homeopathy&f=false) - that you put cold on hot stuff and hot on cold stuff and treat constipation with purgatives, etc. I don’t think you’re disagreeing with him. If homeopathy says that “like cures like” then what you expect is for extremely diluted “medicines” have the _opposite_ effect of the undiluted thing. So if all water is homeopathic sewage, shouldn’t it cure dysentery and e. coli? ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092/15 "2016-01-14T20:59:39Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Dunno how many homeopathic practitioners we have here, probably zero And it’s quite effective that way. We had to purposely dilute the pool of posters until we arrived at that point. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092/16 "2016-01-14T22:20:37Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I don’t think you’re disagreeing with him. He is correct, however, that I gave the wrong name to it. Signatures, not opposites. I’ll remember that. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092/17 "2016-01-14T22:26:46Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I don’t think you’re disagreeing with him. If homeopathy says that “like cures like” then what you expect is for extremely diluted “medicines” have the _opposite_ effect of the undiluted thing. So if all water is homeopathic sewage, shouldn’t it cure dysentery and e. coli? I see what you’re saying. It’s not, however, how a homeopath would say it. They would vehemently deny that the homeopathic preparation does the “opposite” of the undiluted thing, rather that it \*does \*what the undiluted thing does, which somehow (this is the part I’ve never gotten an explanation of that I can grok) triggers the \*body \*to make the appropriate adjustments to correct the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092/18 "2016-01-14T22:36:11Z")
If you have to hit the water a certain way to make it “memorize” what used to be in it, can you hit it the _wrong_ way to make it forget what’s in it? Can you give water a concussion? What if your water is brain-dead? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092/19 "2016-01-14T22:41:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If you have to hit the water a certain way to make it “memorize” what used to be in it, can you hit it the _wrong_ way to make it forget what’s in it? Can you give water a concussion? What if your water is brain-dead? You can “clear” the water, yes. You can inactivate your homeopathic remedy with coffee or chewing gum, among other things, in fact. Homeopathic preparations start with a tincture (water and alcohol extract) for herbals, and are then they add distilled or double filtered water, which is considered clear of any contaminant, physical or vibrational, that it may have held. Why does a filter remove energy? That’s the part no one’s…um…clear…on. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092/20 "2016-01-14T22:43:42Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Dunno how many homeopathic practitioners we have here, probably zero, but hopefully someone is familiar enough with it to explain this one to me. > > Right, so my understanding is that homeopathy’s basic idea is that water has ‘memory’, it can remember what has been put in it and amplifies its properties based on how diluted it is. > > So…I don’t wanna get too base, but if this idea is valid, aren’t we all drinking sewage? Given the amount of poo and pee that has been in water, it goes into the water treatment plant, evaporates, rains into the reservoir, dilution upon dilution… > > What’s their explanation for why 1:10000000 etc. dilutions of ‘medicines’ the water remembers, but not all the shite? Probably already answered, and I’m not expert, but I seem to recall that it’s not just a matter of diluting the whatever in the water but, um, shaking it as well. You have to shake the water to bring out the magic…er, I mean the healthy properties. And it’s shaken, not stirred, so that’s why you don’t get the poo and pee. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-question/743092.md?page=2)