# Homeopathy vs. non-homeopathy dilution calculations **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 8, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717 "2013-10-08T20:01:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717/21 "2013-10-08T23:02:34Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > No, but they do still go through an [extremely convoluted](http://www.boironusahcp.com/homeopathy/about-homeopathy.php) process of repeated shaking when all they really have to do is ship pure water or sugar pills. Interesting video. They show a small warehouse with what looks like multiple 55 gallon drums of plant substances soaking in alcohol, waiting for 21 days for the solution to mature before further processing. But at 30C, give me one drum and I can supply the entire Universe, and a few more, with the homeopathic drug needed for the next billion years. Why do they need more than one? For that matter, why do they need more than one drop? And I noticed the test-tube-in-a-vibrator shaking process violated Hahnemann’s absolute requirement of using a leather pad with precisely 10 hits. Wonder how they explain that. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717/22 "2013-10-08T23:21:42Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > But I often see lower dilutions, and wonder why they are called homeopathic. Conversely, I see conventional medicines with similar dilutions (that is, highly diluted), but they are NOT labeled homeopathic. What makes this distinction? > > … > > Now let’s express these same dilution ratios in percentage. > > 1X = 10% > 2X = 1% > 3X = .1% > 4X = .01% > 5X = .001% > …and so forth. Just to add to the confusion, in chemistry, these ratios have essentially the opposite meaning… For example: 1X [TAE Buffer](http://www.thermoscientificbio.com/nucleic-acid-electrophoresis/50x-tae-buffer-tris-acetate-edta/) is: 0.485% w/v Tris (40 mM) 0.12% w/v acetic acid (20 mM) 0.029% w/v EDTA (1 mM) …and is frequently made or sold as a 50X stock solution which you need to dilute to make a working solution. Just when you thought it couldn’t get more confusing… To address your other question, your 0.315% Phenlramine Maleate solution contains 3.15 g/L of Phenlramine Maleate (assuming that’s w/v,) and I don’t know what the dosage recommended on the bottle is, but since the molecular weight of Phenlramine Maleate is 356.42 g/mol, that’s about a 0.09 Molar solution, and a 2 ml dose will contain about 1.08 x 10[sup]20[/sup] molecules of Phenlramine Maleate. I don’t think you need to worry about reaching the limit of extinction by dilution. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717/23 "2013-10-08T23:30:23Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Some woo-peddlers make products labeled “homeopathic” because they genuinely buy into the principles of homeopathy. These will generally be the highly-diluted stuff that you think of as “homeopathy”. > > Some woo-peddlers make products labeled “homeopathic” because homeopathic “remedies” have special regulatory status in the US, due to some idiotic Congressmen a century ago. These will generally meet whatever standards are required by law (to the extent there are any) to be considered homeopathic. > > And some woo-peddlers make products labeled “homeopathic” because they know that some woo-buyers like that particular flavor of woo. These will be as homeopathic as they need to be to get appropriate-sounding technobabble. They will also generally contain ingredients popularly thought to cure conditions rather than to cause them, because that way, you can snare multiple kinds of woo-buyers at once. And some woo-peddlers call herbal preparations “homeopathic” because they want to drive me crazy. Or something. Whatever the reason, it’s at least as common for people who are self proclaimed “into alternative medicine” to misuse the term “homeopathic” as anyone else. > [@Musicat](#): > > Interesting video. They show a small warehouse with what looks like multiple 55 gallon drums of plant substances soaking in alcohol, waiting for 21 days for the solution to mature before further processing. > > But at 30C, give me one drum and I can supply the entire Universe, and a few more, with the homeopathic drug needed for the next billion years. Why do they need more than one? For that matter, why do they need more than one drop? Because the first “mother” drop to go into the first round of dilution comes from a standarized tincture. (Not standardized as in a standarized extract with a certain percent of a named chemical, but standardized meaning a certain weight of marc and a certain volume of menstruum at a certain percent of alcohol; numbers differ depending on what herb/bug/rock you’re making a remedy of.) > [@](#): > > And I noticed the test-tube-in-a-vibrator shaking process violated Hahnemann’s absolute requirement of using a leather pad with precisely 10 hits. Wonder how they explain that. 'Cause it was an absolute requirement if you wanted to work for Hahnemann. Others use different numbers, and different surfaces. I was taught 60 blows to the palm for the final solution. And not all homeopaths view more dilution as stronger product. There’s an ideological schism (as the wikipedia article mentions) where some people prefer “low dose” (that is, 3X or 6X) and others “high dose”. (Remember to invert those terms in your brain. Low dose=less dilute.) And, for the record, even when I was neck deep in the woo, homeopathics made me go like this: :dubious: I had to learn to make them to pass a larger, more useful medicine making class that dealt 98% with actual medicinal tinctures, infusions, etc., and 2% bullshit. Not quite a homeopathic dose of bullshit, but close. So I can \*explain \*a little from the “insider’s” perspective, but I ain’t \*defending \*it. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717/24 "2013-10-09T00:19:34Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > These dilutions of conventional medicines aren’t much different from some homeopathic ones, so it isn’t the dilution that makes the distinction. What does make the distinction? There is no single definition of “homeopathic”, but its a sure bet that they say that higher powers of dilution make their treatments STRONGER !. That is, they take a useless ingredient, that is no better than a placebo at 10%, and when they make it 0.0001% they say it has super magical powers… its still as good as a placebo. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717/25 "2013-10-09T00:32:25Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > We also know that some homeopathic preparations (\>12C) are so dilute that [they contain only one molecule or less of the supposed active ingredient.](http://www.1023.org.uk/) > > But I often see lower dilutions, and wonder why they are called homeopathic. Conversely, I see conventional medicines with similar dilutions (that is, highly diluted), but they are NOT labeled homeopathic. What makes this distinction? The distinction is whether the product makes a specific medical claim. If it does not (e.g., “Enhances body cromulency.”) then the claims made on the label are not regulated by the FDA. If the product does (e.g. “95% of users in double-blinded tests experienced statistically-significant cromulence increases compared to those who received a placebo.”) then it is regulated by the FDA. I am not aware of any product regulated by the FDA which claims to be homeopathic. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717/26 "2013-10-09T01:02:09Z")
All homeopathic products are regulated by the FDA. However, unlike prescription drugs, they are not evaluated for safety or efficacy, as the law permits products complying with a monograph in the USHP to be marketed without pre-approval (similar to OTC drugs complying with a monograph in the USP, the Code of Federal Regulations, or the Federal Register, although these monographs have themselves passed muster with FDA, which I don’t think can be said for the USHP). ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717/27 "2013-10-09T01:12:28Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > All homeopathic products are regulated by the FDA. Yeah? You got a cite for that? And what does “regulated” mean? That they won’t kill you? ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717/28 "2013-10-09T01:38:13Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > All homeopathic products are regulated by the FDA. Huh, consider me corrected. > [@Musicat](#): > > Yeah? You got a cite for that? And what does “regulated” mean? That they won’t kill you? [http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy](http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy) > [@](#): > > Homeopathic remedies are regulated as drugs under the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act (FDCA). However, under current Agency policy, FDA does not evaluate the remedies for safety or effectiveness. FDA enforcement policies for homeopathic drugs are described in FDA’s Compliance Policy Guide entitled Conditions Under Which Homeopathic Drugs May be Marketed (CPG 7132.15). > > FDA allows homeopathic remedies that meet certain conditions to be marketed without agency preapproval. For example, homeopathic remedies must contain active ingredients that are listed in the Homeopathic Pharmacopeia of the United States (HPUS). The HPUS lists active ingredients that may be legally included in homeopathic products and standards for strength, quality, and purity of that ingredient. In addition, the FDA requires that the label on the product, outer container, or accompanying leaflet include at least one major indication (i.e., medical problem to be treated), a list of ingredients, the number of times the active ingredient was diluted, and directions for use. If a homeopathic remedy claims to treat a serious disease such as cancer, it must be sold by prescription. Only products for minor health problems, like a cold or headache, which go away on their own, can be sold without a prescription. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717/29 "2013-10-09T01:48:40Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > [http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy](http://nccam.nih.gov/health/homeopathy) > [@](#): > > For example, homeopathic remedies must contain active ingredients that are listed in the Homeopathic Pharmacopeia of the United States (HPUS). The HPUS lists active ingredients that may be legally included in homeopathic products and standards for strength, quality, and purity of that ingredient. In addition, the FDA requires that the label on the product, outer container, or accompanying leaflet include at least one major indication (i.e., medical problem to be treated), a list of ingredients, the number of times the active ingredient was diluted, and directions for use… How does that work? If there is no ingredient in the ingredients, and the “active” ingredient can’t be detected, how can the standards be verified? And if there’s nothing in there, how can there be a list of ingredients? The quality? Purity? It “must contain active ingredients” but there are none? ? ? ? And what is “regulation”? Entering a name in a Big Gold Book like Santa Claus’? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717/30 "2013-10-09T03:48:34Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > In case my question isn’t clear, let me put it this way. If extreme dilution is what separates homeopathic preparations from non- . . . That isn’t what separates them. The “homeopathic” concept is what separates them. Perfectly valid and legitimate medications can also come in dilute form. Dilution isn’t what makes homeopathy “magic.” “Like cures like” is what makes homeopathy magic. It isn’t even intrinsically stupid. In long ago days, when no one knew any better, the concept was as valid as any other concept. There was a lot of magic thinking before scientific medicine came on the scene. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717/31 "2013-10-09T13:08:12Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > How does that work? If there is no ingredient in the ingredients, and the “active” ingredient can’t be detected, how can the standards be verified? And if there’s nothing in there, how can there be a list of ingredients? The quality? Purity? It “must contain active ingredients” but there are none? ? ? ? No personal diss intended, but you seem to be peculiarly dense in this thread, and keep shifting the point of your questions as if you’re trying to get somewhere very fast, but don’t know where. If your overall question is “How can this homeopathy stuff possibly work?” the simple answer is: it doesn’t. It’s a nonsense, woo branch of pseudomedicine that has persisted because of fervent proponents who hate science-based medicine, an FDA that long ago chose to go limp on the subject (because distilled water never killed anyone) and a vague sense that it represents trusted, proven, ancient and thus “worthy” medical treatments. But the base notions are bullshit, pure and simple. In a class with newspaper horoscopes and aromatherapy. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717/32 "2013-10-09T13:55:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Equate Nose Drops, 1% HCl Sorry for the nitpick, but isn’t that Equate Nose Drops, 1% **Phenylephrine** HCl ? I believe that organic bases (many OTC drugs) are more water soluble (and hence more effective) when reacted with Hydrochloric acid. I am not aware of HCl (hydrochloric acid) being particularly useful for nose drops (again I am not aware if HCl is a homeopathic “remedy”). ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717/33 "2013-10-09T15:23:45Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > …(again I am not aware if HCl is a homeopathic “remedy”). Used correctly, it can dissolve all your problems. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717/34 "2013-10-09T15:36:04Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Used correctly, it can dissolve all your problems. But in the spirit of old school homeopathy, a homeopathic preparation of HCl would treat conditions where you are dissolving in water. So maybe macerated skin or something. But no, in reality, HCl is not used homeopathically by itself. There are \_\_\_\_\_\_ HCl homepathics, though. Betaine HCl, sarafloxacin HCl, etc. Just like real meds, they use the HCl to aid in solubility for the initial step of the preparation, then dilute the hell out if it. The law of similar is not the only rule in homeopathy, as is evidenced by homeopathic preparations of antibiotics for infections. Things have gotten wibbly-wobbly over the years. I think the OP is looking for clarity and consistent philosophy in a realm where there just isn’t any. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717/35 "2013-10-09T15:47:10Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > Sorry for the nitpick, but isn’t that Equate Nose Drops, 1% **Phenylephrine** HCl ? You are right. Really tiny print on them teeny, tiny bottles. And this one says, “Extra strength.” Now that I look even more closely, I see “HCI”, not “HCl.” That’s definitely an “I” (eye, upper case), not an “L” (el, lower case). Does that change anything? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717/36 "2013-10-09T15:51:52Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > If your overall question is “How can this homeopathy stuff possibly work?” It’s not, as stated in the first line of the OP. It’s about dilution terminology, mathematical equivalence and their relevance to the definition of homeopathic. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717/37 "2013-10-09T16:29:16Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > It’s not, as stated in the first line of the OP. It’s about dilution terminology, mathematical equivalence and their relevance to the definition of homeopathic. Okay. You’ve kind of gone all over the place with your subsequent questions. The answer, if the above isn’t sufficient, is that homeopathy has its own nomenclature that is related to what homeopaths think they are doing with the substances and dilution, which doesn’t match up with any other formal dilution scheme in common use. And that the extreme dilution is not what characterizes homeopathy; it’s the belief that microscopic to nonexistent amounts of causative agents cure illness. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717/38 "2013-10-09T16:34:36Z")
Answering the OP’s question(s) doesn’t seem all that complicated to me. It’s unsurprising that some dilutions occurring with evidence-based medications come close to dilutions claimed by certain homeopathic preparations (although the difference still seems to be at least a factor of ten). Most homeopathic “drugs” that I’ve seen are so extremely diluted that they fall into the category of “few if any molecules of active substance”. At the low end of dilution, it’s possible though unlikely that ingredients might have a pharmacologic effect. By contrast, pharmaceuticals (including over the counter medications) are supposed to have (and are regulated accordingly) defined pharmacologic effects. Since prevailing law essentially exempts homeopathic “drugs” from regulation, and the supplement industry and its Congressional allies have effectively prevented the FDA from regulating non-homeopathic supplements, the market is open to products that are called homeopathic by their manufacturers, even if they resemble diluted and questionably active drugs (i.e. 3C products). In other words, I don’t see anything preventing a supplement dealer from marketing a product as “homeopathic” if it contains 1% by weight of an ingredient, even if that violates homeopathic orthodoxy. As previously noted, most buyers probably don’t care - they see “homeopathic” as a sort of “natural” product, and aren’t paying attention to the degree of dilution. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717/39 "2013-10-09T16:41:30Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > You are right. Really tiny print on them teeny, tiny bottles. And this one says, “Extra strength.” > > Now that I look even more closely, I see “HCI”, not “HCl.” That’s definitely an “I” (eye, upper case), not an “L” (el, lower case). Does that change anything? Yes, it means either Walmart’s label maker needs a proofreader, or it’s time for reading glasses. It’s L, as in Cl, as in chloride. Hydrochloride, in this case. H C I would be hydrogen carbon and iodine, which nose drops aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717/40 "2013-10-09T16:46:27Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Since prevailing law essentially exempts homeopathic “drugs” from regulation, and the supplement industry and its Congressional allies have effectively prevented the FDA from regulating non-homeopathic supplements, the market is open to products that are called homeopathic by their manufacturers, even if they resemble diluted and questionably active drugs (i.e. 3C products). In other words, I don’t see anything preventing a supplement dealer from marketing a product as “homeopathic” if it contains 1% by weight of an ingredient, even if that violates homeopathic orthodoxy. As previously noted, most buyers probably don’t care - they see “homeopathic” as a sort of “natural” product, and aren’t paying attention to the degree of dilution. What is supposed to prevent it is the FDA regulations detailed in post 29. No, you cannot legally go make just anything into a homeopathic remedy at any dose you choose, it has to be listed in the pharmacopoeia. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-vs-non-homeopathy-dilution-calculations/670717.md?page=3)