# Homeopathy: what's added? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 20, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214 "2013-04-20T13:25:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Heracles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heracles/32/487_2.png) [@Heracles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heracles)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214/1 "2013-04-20T13:25:42Z")
Most of the debunking of homeopathy I’ve seen concentrates on dilution of active ingredients in water. Apparently all homeopathy is based on water, and the more diluted the ingredient, the more potent the advertised effects – even beyond the point where there isn’t a single molecule of the ingredient left in the water. Yet the homeopathic remedies I’ve seen are in granular form. Are granules supposed to be based on water memory, too? If so, how are they made? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214/2 "2013-04-20T13:52:15Z")
“Genuine” homeopathy is indeed based on the (ludicrous) premise that the more you dilute something, the more potent it gets. But because homeopathy, among all forms of woo, has a special place in the US medicine regulatory scheme, a lot of other kinds of woo that aren’t based on dilution label themselves as homeopathy, with the hope that this will prevent inconveniences like the government forbidding them from poisoning people. ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214/3 "2013-04-20T14:13:12Z")
The granules are made by applying the magic water to sugar pills, transferring the magic to the pills as the water dries. Sometimes they put a few magically treated sugar pills in a bottle of untreated sugar pills and shake it to transfer the magic that way. I am not making this up. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214/4 "2013-04-20T16:04:10Z")
The original ingredient is supposed to be a substance that produces symptoms similar to those the patient is suffering from. That is where the term homeopathy derives from. The “drug” is something that produces the same symptoms (from the from Greek _homoios_ “like, similar, of the same kind”). Then, of course, they dilute the stuff all away so it doesn’t produce those symptoms any more. Voilà! I believe the original theory was that like should treat like, so they gave the patient a substance that would produce like symptoms. However, that, of course, tended to make the patient worse, not better, so they gave less and less of the stuff - a good way to do this is by diluting it - until it no longer made them worse. This was then counted as a medical success. The stuff about “memory” in the water is all a _post hoc_ rationalization, and probably did not arrive until after people started pointing out that the levels of dilution used probably meant that there was none of the original substance left in the “medicine” at all. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214/5 "2013-04-20T16:30:46Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I believe the original theory was that like should treat like, so they gave the patient a substance that would produce like symptoms. However, that, of course, tended to make the patient worse, not better, so they gave less and less of the stuff - a good way to do this is by diluting it - until it no longer made them worse. This was then counted as a medical success. > > The stuff about “memory” in the water is all a _post hoc_ rationalization, and probably did not arrive until after people started pointing out that the levels of dilution used probably meant that there was none of the original substance left in the “medicine” at all. I think there are “vibrations” involved in this. You add some substance like arsenic to water and the way the arsenic molecules “vibrate” is somehow transmitted to the water molecules. So the theory is the water molecules have been changed even after the arsenic is no longer present. And these specially vibrating water molecules can now be used to make other water molecules vibrate, which is why the extra dilutions work. Leaving aside any questions on the existence of the original vibrations and any transmission of vibrations, I don’t understand why this theory posits a one-way exchange. If the vibrations of the arsenic is being transmitted to the water, why isn’t the vibration of the water being transmitted to the arsenic? Same thing with the dilutions. If you add a teaspoon of “treated” water to a gallon of regular water, wouldn’t the “vibrations” of the regular water be transmitted to the treated water? ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214/6 "2013-04-21T07:01:56Z")
SHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! Take your homeopathic medicine and stop questioning things so much! ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214/7 "2013-04-21T09:54:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think there are “vibrations” involved in this. You add some substance like arsenic to water and the way the arsenic molecules “vibrate” is somehow transmitted to the water molecules. So the theory is the water molecules have been changed even after the arsenic is no longer present. And these specially vibrating water molecules can now be used to make other water molecules vibrate, which is why the extra dilutions work. > > Leaving aside any questions on the existence of the original vibrations and any transmission of vibrations, I don’t understand why this theory posits a one-way exchange. If the vibrations of the arsenic is being transmitted to the water, why isn’t the vibration of the water being transmitted to the arsenic? Same thing with the dilutions. If you add a teaspoon of “treated” water to a gallon of regular water, wouldn’t the “vibrations” of the regular water be transmitted to the treated water? Even if water was somehow unique in not transmitting these “vibrations”, it still wouldn’t make sense to seek out water that has artificially been exposed to toxins in this manner, when all water on the planet has naturally been exposed to the homeopathic process for billions of years. ---
**Author:** ![Heracles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heracles/32/487_2.png) [@Heracles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heracles)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214/8 "2013-04-21T12:37:01Z")
While I agree with everything above on the absurdity of the dilution process, what I’m interested in is the process for granules. Is **AndrewL** ’s account accurate, that they’re just sugar pills that have been made using some liquid homeopathic solution, and thus acquired the same claim to therapeutic qualities as the liquid? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214/9 "2013-04-21T12:40:26Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Even if water was somehow unique in not transmitting these “vibrations”, it still wouldn’t make sense to seek out water that has artificially been exposed to toxins in this manner, when all water on the planet has naturally been exposed to the homeopathic process for billions of years. But you’re forgetting that you have to shake the water juuuuuuust right for the magic to happen. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214/10 "2013-04-21T12:52:34Z")
Yes, generally lactose (milk sugar). It’s hardly secret. It’s on the ingredient label. [http://www.hylands.com/products/arnica.php](http://www.hylands.com/products/arnica.php) ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214/11 "2013-04-21T12:57:47Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Yes, generally lactose (milk sugar). > > It’s hardly secret. It’s on the ingredient label. > > [http://www.hylands.com/products/arnica.php](http://www.hylands.com/products/arnica.php) So what if you are lactose intolerant? Why lactose? Why not a less, er, problematic sugar? ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214/12 "2013-04-21T12:59:49Z")
> [@AndrewL](#): > > The granules are made by applying the magic water to sugar pills, transferring the magic to the pills as the water dries. > > Sometimes they put a few magically treated sugar pills in a bottle of untreated sugar pills and shake it to transfer the magic that way. > > I am not making this up. What I want to know is, do the manufacturers have to provide any evidence that they actually do the solutions etc? After all, the end product could not be chemically distinguished from pure water or unadulterated sugar pills. As homeopathic remedies re not regulated by drug authorities, I assume they are counted as foodstuffs in the eyes of the law? Basically, is there anything to stop me producing little vials of distilled water or bottles of sugar pills, slapping a “30c Homeopathic Hogwash Tincture” label on them and selling then for £9.99 a pop? ---
**Author:** ![thicksantorum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@thicksantorum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thicksantorum)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214/13 "2013-04-21T13:47:14Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > So what if you are lactose intolerant? > > Why lactose? Why not a less, er, problematic sugar? You’d have to eat a _lot_ of sugar pills for lactose intolerance to be an issue. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214/14 "2013-04-21T13:57:36Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > So what if you are lactose intolerant? Most people who are lactose intolerant can tolerate small amounts of lactose. It’s recommended that you cut down your milk intake when first diagnosed. Most people with lactose intolerance can handle a 1/2 cup of milk at a time, and there’s less lactose than that in a dose. But if you’re one of those who needs to be completely lactose free, then you shouldn’t take pills with lactose in them. Good luck with that, by the way. It’s one of the most common pill filler/binders. > [@](#): > > Why lactose? Why not a less, er, problematic sugar? Milk sugar is cheap. > [@Colophon](#): > > What I want to know is, do the manufacturers have to provide any evidence that they actually do the solutions etc? After all, the end product could not be chemically distinguished from pure water or unadulterated sugar pills. As homeopathic remedies re not regulated by drug authorities, I assume they are counted as foodstuffs in the eyes of the law? > > Basically, is there anything to stop me producing little vials of distilled water or bottles of sugar pills, slapping a “30c Homeopathic Hogwash Tincture” label on them and selling then for £9.99 a pop? In the US, homeopathic preparations are considered supplements, and are regulated by the FDA under DSHEA, which is a group of regulations that applies to dietary supplements. No, you don’t have to prove it works, but you also can’t make medical claims. Some of these folks host their websites in other countries to get around that and make medical claims on the website, but the packaging in the US stores will be all sorts of vague, using “health claims” instead of “medical claims.” Health claim: promotes healthy urinary flow Medical claim: reduces enlarged prostate Health claims do not have to be proven. Medical claims do. When you make a medical claim, you’re into drug regulation territory, and need to go through the approval process for drugs. Can you make Hogwash 30C to sell? Sure. You’ll have to follow [Good Manufacturing Processes](http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?cfrpart=111) if you use a warehouse, separate packager and/or distribute your product to other people who sell it to the general public, but sure you can. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214/15 "2013-04-21T15:37:06Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Can you make Hogwash 30C to sell? Sure. You’ll have to follow [Good Manufacturing Processes](http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?cfrpart=111) if you use a warehouse, separate packager and/or distribute your product to other people who sell it to the general public, but sure you can. But do I actually have to dilute down and succuss actual tincture of hogwash to make it, or can I just use water? Is there some kind of homeopathic rabbi equivalent who checks out the factories to make sure they’re actually doing the pointless dilutions? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214/16 "2013-04-21T16:15:12Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > What I want to know is, do the manufacturers have to provide any evidence that they actually do the solutions etc? After all, the end product could not be chemically distinguished from pure water or unadulterated sugar pills. As homeopathic remedies re not regulated by drug authorities, I assume they are counted as foodstuffs in the eyes of the law? > > Basically, is there anything to stop me producing little vials of distilled water or bottles of sugar pills, slapping a “30c Homeopathic Hogwash Tincture” label on them and selling then for £9.99 a pop? Bring it down to £8.99 and we’ll talk. Also, what’s that in real money? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214/17 "2013-04-21T16:23:09Z")
> [@AndrewL](#): > > The granules are made by applying the magic water to sugar pills, transferring the magic to the pills as the water dries. So… you put substance A in water and dilute until there are likely no molecules of A left in the water. The “essence” of A has been transferred to the water. Then you apply the water to sugar pills and let it dry up until there is no water left. The essence of A has now been transferred to the sugar. And then you take the sugar pill to cure something that a straight dose of A would have caused. Got it. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214/18 "2013-04-21T16:54:02Z")
I must correct myself. Homeopathics are NOT regulated under DSHEA. They are regulated by the FDA as drugs, but largely ignored in reality, thanks to a series of loopholes pushed through by one Royal Copeland, a New York Senator and homeopathic physician who was a principal supporter of the Act that created the FDA. > [@](#): > > Homeopathic remedies are regulated by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), which regulates manufacturing and other standards that are appropriate for homeopathic drugs, mainly through The Homœopathic Pharmacopœia of the United States (HPUS)[46] as administered by the Homœopathic Pharmacopœia Convention of the United States and section 400.400 of the FDA Compliance Policy Guidance Manual.[47] Homeopathic drugs must be tested for scope of effect, manufactured, and labeled according to the Federal FD&C Act and the HPUS before they are considered official homeopathic drugs. Official homeopathic drugs can be marketed according to their classification in the HPUS. They are not regulated under the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994. Many homeopathic drugs can be sold “over-the-counter”; however, some are classified as prescription-only under all circumstances, and some are classified as prescription-only in various low dilutions. As with all drugs, the labeling requirements are important, as that is one of the primary ways the FDA can regulate drugs. Homeopathic pharmaceutical techniques are not technologically complicated, and the drugs are generally considered to be biologically safe because they are so diluted to the point where there are no molecules from the original solution left in a dose of the final remedy.[48] > > The FDA makes significant exemptions for homeopathic remedies as compared to other drugs. Here are a few:[49] > > ``` > They are not required to submit new drug applications to the FDA. > They are "exempt from good manufacturing practice requirements related to expiration dating". > They are exempt from "finished product testing for identity and strength". > They may "contain much higher amounts" of alcohol than other drugs, which may contain "no more than 10 percent...and...even less for children's medications". > > ``` > **[Regulation and prevalence of homeopathy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_prevalence_of_homeopathy)** > > Homeopathy is fairly common in some countries while being uncommon in others. In some countries, there are no specific legal regulations concerning the use of homeopathy, while in others, licenses or degrees in conventional medicine from accredited universities are required. > Homeopathic preparations are not effective for treating any condition. Scientists and evidence based medical practitioners consider homeopathy a sham or a pseudoscience, and the mainstream medical community regards it as qua... So I need to change my answer to a big ol’, “dunno”. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214/19 "2013-04-21T19:36:26Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > Basically, is there anything to stop me producing little vials of distilled water or bottles of sugar pills, slapping a “30c Homeopathic Hogwash Tincture” label on them and selling then for £9.99 a pop? There might be fraudulent advertising issues. If I perform the homeopathic procedures and sell you a bottle of treated water, then the responsibility is on you for being dumb enough to believe it will have any effect. If I sell you a bottle of regular water that I falsely claim was made with homeopathic procedures, then I open myself up to the possibility of fraud allegations. Either way it’s a scam but one scam happens to be legal. If I’m a scam artist, I’ll choose the easier path and scam you the legal way. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214/20 "2013-04-21T19:42:02Z")
On a side note, some people might remember the story from 2009 about Billy Joel’s daughter attempting suicide. The original stories reported that she tried to kill herself with an overdose of sleeping pills. Then later reports clarified the story: she had tried to kill herself with an overdose of _homeopathic_ sleeping pills. In other words, she had tried to commit suicide by eating a tablespoon of sugar. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeopathy-whats-added/656214.md?page=2)