homeopathy

Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
21

Great article Cecil! Here are a few homeopathic musings of my own:

Does homeopathic water “remember” its origins?

A lot of it has been through the gastrointestinal tracts of a lot of people. Thereafter a lot of toilets and sewage treatment plants, before finally ending up as pure, distilled water, ready to be brainwashed into forgetting its past. First then is it prepared to selectively remember only its contact with the active, healing substances it was brought into contact with for a short time in the apothecary’s lab.

Is homeopathic water actually reincarnated piss? Can a regression therapist help it remember its past lives? What tales could it tell? Of course it probably will remember passing through a famous historical person and actually being in a royal toilet! Homeopathic water isn’t just ordinary water. It comes with a royal pedigree!

Does the longer passage time for men than for women (men therefore succuss the water looonger than women) result in accounts from reincarnated piss of its origins from famous men, more frequently than from famous women? (I’m assuming that more succussing results in longer and better memory-retention.)

But what happens if the water has amnesia? If it has a defective memory function, how will it then be able to remember its contact with a healing substance? Again, it’ll need to go into therapy. Maybe then the regression therapist can help it recall its birth and other traumatic experiences. Can water be psychotic or neurotic? Maybe psychotherapy is what’s needed. Can water have split or multiple personalities? We’re really getting in deep water here!

This all sounds quite hypothetical. If, if, if… Like Roger Whitaker sings, “If’s an illusion”. Just like homeopathy. And illusions can be powerful things. Just like faith, they can move mountains - mountains of money!

It’s been said that there’s more between heaven and earth than meets the eye. Maybe. But most of it is free fantasy. And when free fantasy gets run through the alt. med. spinning wheel, it becomes an elaborate, sometimes enticingly beautiful fabric, which can be sold. It’s no longer free. Now fantasy costs! And since nobody in their right mind would dream of paying for fantasy, their cognitive dissonance plays them a trick. They excuse themselves for doing something so dumb, with the rationalization: “It worked for me. That’s proof enough”.

Another singer, Enya, has recorded a great CD called “The Memory of Trees”. Maybe she should record one called “The Memory of Water”… :wink:

We need to get Cosby, Seinfeld, etc. to work up a series of homeopathic jokes!

Sorry folks, but sometimes I just have a hard time keeping a straight face when thinking about homeopathy… :wink: It just proves that the more non-sensical and illogical something is, the more readily it gets swallowed by otherwise intelligent people.

The acid test of the ability, or lack of it, to experience cognitive dissonance, is homeopathy. On the condition that the way it works is known (by its own definitions), anyone that can believe in homeopathy is, by definition, very seriously illogical. They are most likely immune to logical arguments regarding other forms of quackery. (But try discussing their financial affairs, and they can suddenly become very logical! Especially if they can turn a quick buck.)
Paul Lee, PT
Denmark
E-mail: healthbase@post.tele.dk
The Quack-Files: http://www.geocities.com/healthbase

22

Is there any way to tell two homeopathetic potions apart, apart from the label on the bottle?

23

To answer your question shortly: NO!

I had a patient that was a pharmacist. We happened to talk about alt. med. and she volunteered this interesting experience. (This happened here in Denmark.)

She had formerly worked at a pharmacy where they made drugs ordered by various doctors. One of them was an MD turned homeopath. He had his homeopathic “medicines” made there. She told me that she and her associates didn’t believe in any of the homeopathic humbug. So they saved a lot of time and effort by filling the little bottles with pure water and labelling them as he had ordered. He never knew the difference. Neither did his patients. No one complained. No one got hurt. His patients got the same reactions that they usually got. No one paid any more or less, or got any more or less, than they usually did. The only difference was in the discrepancy between the fact and the expectation. Since they were unknowing of this, it “healed” just as well as it usually did.

She and her associates did commit fraud by doing this. They received no exemption from informed consent (they could have in the USA because of “lack of potential harm”) either. What they did was not even officially a research project. But it’s certainly one way of testing the homeopathic hypothesis. Talk about blinding!

I am not recommending what she did. It was wrong. Not question about it.

Now, imagine an actress playing her part in the TV/film production. She could be portrayed in several ways: acting on her own, following the instructions of her boss, or even as an undercover agent for the police (who have decided that homeopathy is fraud), etc…

The ethics can get debated from many angles. What is the difference between a lie and an untruth? What constitutes fraud? Who’s fraud was worse: the homeopath’s or her’s? What about the satisfied patient, who replies to all the chocking revelations: “It worked for me, and that’s all I’m interested in.”

I learn an awful lot from my patients!!

Paul Lee, PT
healthbase@post.tele.dk

24

fyslee wrote:

Here’s some thoughts on whether this person should be subject to prosecution for her actions:

“If you as a consumer have a desire to purchase a fake or a fraud of one kind or another, should your government guarantee your right to do so? More than that, is your government obligated to prosecute one who, knowing of your propensity for fraud, tricks you into buying the genuine in place of buying the fake? Remembering that ‘your government’ is all the rest of us, is it right for you to take our time and money to underwrite such ridiculous exercises as making sure you are cheated when you want to be cheated? And must we penalize the man who breaks his promise to cheat you?”

Dick Beeler wrote this in 1972 when he was concerned about government certifying “organic” foods.

And by the way, I’d like to point out that I earlier predicted that there would be no debate (by SDMB members) about homeopathy. So far, only one pro-homeopathy person has posted, and it was his first post here.

25

Dear Fyslee

Har har har!

Loved your post, never thought about that piss, gastrointenstinal connection. The idea that water has memory is almost as silly as Quartz Crystals being alive and having healing properties.
I love the way these “Alternative Healing” adherants have “creative amnesia” and forget about therapies/notions that have shown no worth. Such as “Kombucha” water,Iridology, the Bates Method, colon cleansing,Theraputic Touch,pyramid power. I think the reason that they get so uptight and defensive is the subconscious thought that they may be wasting their time/energy. The big,bad sceptics are spoiling the Cosmic Vibrations!
Oh Boy! :rolleyes:
And I used to be such a faithful adherant!

26

I, for one, would like to see a couple more pro-homeopathy posts. This could be a lively discussion if we had more than one post to challenge.

It’s from heraldry. The proper heraldic term for things like the “Cross of St. Patrick.” Look it up.

27

Oh, and please don’t take that last as a post in favor of homeopathy. I’m just in favor of hearing both sides (even after I’m sure which side I’m on).

It’s from heraldry. The proper heraldic term for things like the “Cross of St. Patrick.” Look it up.

28

So I’m curious. If a substance, enormously diluted, can have an effect on a person, how pure does the original water have to be in so that all the other compounds that might have been dissolved in it have no therapeutic or harmful effect? I doubt the technology exists to get water that pure. I’m sure it didn’t exist a hundred years ago.

Wouldn’t there be the corresponding negative effect of vastly diluted substances causing
illness? All the water we drink has vastly diluted substances in it. By this logic, every time you take a drink of water, it should either kill you or cure you. How would you ever filter out the random noise?

29

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Finagle:
**

>snip>

“By this logic, every time you take a drink of water, it should either kill you or cure you.”

Good point, Finagle. The same would also apply to the Surrogate test used by AK (applied kinesiologists, the woo-woo kind). If you want to read about how far from reality some alt. med.s can get, just read about it in the back of John F. Thie, DC book, “Touch for Health”. (Yes, chiropractic is the parent of both zone therapy/reflexology and applied kinesiology. What else can a quack profession give birth to, other than quack children?) It’s really way out pseudo-science. If it’s possible to heal someone by just touching them, or someone they are in contact with, then we’d all be exchanging health and disease every time we shake hands! (And I’m not referring to bacteria and vira)

BTW, if you reply to this, please e-mail me privately of it, since I don’t usually have time to monitor this great site.
Paul Lee, PT
Denmark

E-mail: healthbase@post.tele.dk
HF List Intro: http://www.hcrc.org/wwwboard/messages/197.shtml
The Quack-Files: http://www.geocities.com/healthbase

   "Science is a way of thinking,

much more than it is a body of facts."
Carl Sagan

      "Absence of evidence
                  is not
       evidence of absence."
                Carl Sagan

“Mankind’s capacity for deception
and self-deception knows no limits.”
Paul Lee

“The difference between a conviction and prejudice
is that you can explain a conviction without getting angry.”
Author Unknown

“If you don’t stand for something you’ll fall for anything.”
Reebok ad

30

You forget that the great advantage of magic as opposed to inferior forms of technology is that it comes with a DWIM (Do What I Mean) feature.

Although there was the sad case of the apprentice sorcerer who let three drops of his own sweat fall into the roach-killing cauldron…

John W. Kennedy
“Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.”
– Charles Williams

31

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by PeterAtGemini:

“3. The Law of Similars (if understood more than superficially) couldn’t be more unlike the principle behind the Frankensteinian practice of vaccination (which has certainly never been demonstrated to be safe and effective, though it has been linked with infectious disasters and been shown to be dangerous to health) was invented by a moron (Jenner) who thought that injecting the running pus from sick cows into the human bloodstream was a marvelous idea on the face of it.”
Wow! Incredible what anti-vax brainwashing can accomplish!

Are you a chiropractor? Or just another anti-vaxer who doesn’t really understand what happens when vaccinations get dropped?

Here’s what happens whenever a group or country tries to drop vaccinations. Holland is just the latest example. These are very real and completely unnecessay tragedies.

******************************’’

Health Canada Infectious Disease News Briefs - Jan 20, 2000 http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hpb/lcdc/bid/dsd/news/nb0300_e.html
Contributed by Dr. Terry Polevoy

Measles: The Netherlands (Update)

Since April 15, the Dutch national bureau for the coordination of communicable disease control has received reports of 2300 cases of measles, 97% of whom were unvaccinated. Cases have occurred throughout the Netherlands but have been concentrated in the so-called Bible belt, where people choose not to have their children vaccinated for religious
reasons. Almost 20% of cases have suffered serious complications: 3 children died, 53 were admitted to hospital (30 with
pneumonia, 4 with encephalitis, 19 other), 130 were treated for pneumonia at home, 152 had otitis media, and 87 had other complications (mostly respiratory tract infections). Forty-four per cent of cases have been aged 6-10 years, 30% 1-5 years, 13% 11-15 years, 7% >15 years, and 5% < 1 year. Most parents (86%) have given religious reasons for not having their children vaccinated, some cases (5%) have arisen below the age when the first dose of measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine is given in the Netherlands (14 months), 7% of parents have given other reasons, and for 2% the reason is unknown. The Dutch Ministry of Health has publicized these data in an attempt to convince parents that measles can be a serious disease and that
vaccination is an excellent preventive intervention. Municipal health departments and mother and child health clinics have
organized special opening hours for measles vaccinations. Experience of previous similar measles epidemics (1987/88, 1992/93) leads us to expect this epidemic to continue for a few more months. All contacts (> 6 months of age) of cases notified are offered vaccination, but very few parents can be persuaded to accept the offer. In addition, many cases are not notified, as parents do not always seek medical advice, especially for uncomplicated cases.

Vaccination is not compulsory in the Netherlands: the national coverage for the first dose of MMR vaccine exceeds 96%, but those whose parents avoid vaccination are geographically and socially clustered, which enables epidemics to occur if the virus is introduced at a time when a high enough proportion of the population is susceptible.

Source: Eurosurveillance Weekly, Issue 1, January 6, 2000

Here’s a summary of the current situation, by Dr. Willem Betz in Holland:

number of cases: 2811
deaths: 3
serious complications admitted to hospital: 64
serious complications treated at home: 418
There are no data available on permanent health damage.

Those figures are statistically normal (for non-immunized persons):
1 death for a 1000 cases
1/50 hospital admission
1/5 complications

Those averages count only for a population that is well fed and otherwise healthy.
The damage is much higher in underdeveloped countries.

Well, PeterAtGemini, are your vaccinations up to date? If not, you are at risk and putting all around you at risk. But then, to be fair, you should be allowed to suffer from your own choices. But those around you shouldn’t. (Maybe those opposed to animal experiments should be consistent and volunteer to be experimented on instead of the mice…) :wink:

BTW, if you reply to this, please e-mail me privately of it, since I don’t usually have time to monitor this great site.

Paul Lee, PT
Denmark

E-mail: healthbase@post.tele.dk
HF List Intro: http://www.hcrc.org/wwwboard/messages/197.shtml
The Quack-Files: http://www.geocities.com/healthbase

   "Science is a way of thinking,

much more than it is a body of facts."
Carl Sagan

      "Absence of evidence
                  is not
       evidence of absence."
                Carl Sagan

“Mankind’s capacity for deception
and self-deception knows no limits.”
Paul Lee

“The difference between a conviction and prejudice
is that you can explain a conviction without getting angry.”
Author Unknown

“If you don’t stand for something you’ll fall for anything.”
Reebok ad

32

First time poster here. I’ve enjoyed Cecil’s books and columns for years. I enjoyed watching Cecil tear homeopathy to shreds. (I’m glad to see others write in support of homeopathy too; what’s a message board without some comic relief?)

The last paragraph of the homeopathy column bothered me though, especially the last sentence:

After a column’s worth of poking holes in the un-science of homeopathy, Cecil throws his hands in the air and says “Who knows?”

Even the makers of cold remedies don’t claim that they’ll CURE you. They only claim that they’ll make you more comfortable while you’re sick. And it’s a claim they have to provide some real support for to get FDA approval. I think the right answer to “Did the over-the-counter remedy help [to cure you]?” isn’t “Who knows,” but “NO, of course not!” I’m surprised that Cecil is giving the anti-science crowd even an inch. And I have a good bet about which part of his column will get quoted by homeopathy believers in the future.

Then again, I haven’t been “Fighting ignorance since 1973.” Maybe if I’d spent years and years answering the kooks and the hate mail, I’d be throwing my hands in the air now and again, too.

33

Let me the first to welcome fyslee and Lagged2Death to our little community. Both of you should raise our collective IQ by several points. Hope you’re both able to post more often.

Nitpick: There are actually two pro-homeopathic posts. The OP was written by a JD Rabbit, using JillGat as a messenger. Guess he or she didn’t want to take the time to register. :shrug: It’s also possible the person is somehow unaware of the Message Boards and may think his/her screed will appear in one of Cecil’s next columns. [cockney]Not bloody likely![/cockney]

Hey, if homeopathic water “remembers” the chemicals that were once in it, why doesn’t it “remember” its container? If it can be affected by a single molecule of processed duck liver, why can’t it be affected by the millions of molecules of glass or ceramic or plastic or metal that contained it? Maybe because it’s “outside” the water… :rolleyes: (Or do homeopaths consider those substances as non-reactive? Or do they give the water amnesia?)

><DARWIN>
_L___L

34

[[I, for one, would like to see a couple more pro-homeopathy posts. This could be a lively discussion if we had more than one post to challenge.]]

I agree. I know several intelligent, educated people who use and believe in homeopathy, and I’d like to hear more viewpoints here.

I am thinking that maybe those of us who think homeopathy sounds absurd are looking at it the wrong way. We are assuming that this therapy is supposed to work like immunization in that it involves adding an agent or antigen to a medicine in order to stimulate the immune system to fight the disease. This is not an appropriate analogy of course, due to the dilution of homeopathic remedies and the fact that vaccination prevents disease, while homeopathy usually means to treat it.

It seems to me that clearly magic is involved somehow, and I don’t mean that as a total put-down. I believe in some kinds of magic myself (computers, for example).

C’mon alternative medicine people… don’t be shy!

BTW, the post I copied was from a person who wrote to Cecil about the column. I asked her if she’d like me to post it on the message board, and she said yes. I hope that this thread will prompt her to register and reply.

Jill

35

fyslee, your phamacist friend has nothing to worry about. He merely gave the patient a generic substitute! Now, if the homeopathetic doc can show the court a distinct difference between the two solutions… :slight_smile:

36

I doubt that any court case would be forthcoming, even if the homeopath found out about what he’s really been giving his patients. For the first, it would be embarassing for him. For the second, his patients would lose faith in homeopathy.

Actually such a court case would be an excellent setting in which to expose homeopathy for what it really is to the whole world. The emperor has no clothes on!

Paul Lee, PT
Denmark
E-mail: healthbase@post.tele.dk
HF List Intro: http://www.hcrc.org/wwwboard/messages/197.shtml
The Quack-Files: http://www.geocities.com/healthbase

37

The Hypothetical Homeopath

There once was a TV program. The UK/Australian version was called “Hypotheticals”. Here in Denmark it was called “Dilemma”. I don’t know what it was called in the US.

I’ve been toying with the idea of letting homeopathy get the hatchet, by making it the subject of a TV program. Or better yet, make a full-length cinema film out of it. Using the same concept as the TV series “Hypotheticals” or the game “Scruples”, but with flash-backs showing what “really” happened. That puts a little flesh on the theory, making it understandable to the viewer. It also can then affect the feelings of the viewer, in a way that an intellectual debate, or rehashing of events, could never do.

The participants (all top actors of course!!): Geoffrey Robertson (BBC), “Dr. Hahnemann”, a homeopathic “doctor”, a bioethicist, one or more dissatisfied patients, one or more satisfied patients, a minister of the gospel (ethics), a prosecuting lawyer, a defense lawyer, a judge, a good research scientist, a sloppy researcher, a government representative for consumer protection, a civil rights activist, etc. etc…

The production team of the film would naturally :wink: involve those experienced in writing for the “Hypotheticals” show, good actors, and a good film director. Spielberg? Wow!

Let the subject get totally thrashed around and examined from every possible angle. A script can contain lots of things for a devil’s advocate to play with, without recommending or agreeing with them in real life. On the contrary, just like a devil’s advocate’s role. The end-result being, that all the viewers would have to admit, that the only reason that it “works”, is because you “believe” it will. Of course, not all will be convinced. Just like after seeing “Dead Man Walking”. Those that were against capital punishment, continue to be so. Those that were for it, continue to be so. But no one was left in doubt about the nature of capital punishment or the guilt of the barbarous criminal.

Hopefully no one will be left in doubt about the nature of “The Ultimate Fake”. It will cause debate, leaving a lot of people more enlightened.

Can we have a brainstorm about this idea? Maybe it’ll get wings! I don’t know anyone who can get this idea off the ground. Maybe some of you do.

Read Dr. Barrett’s article: “Homeopathy: The Ultimate Fake” http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/homeo.html

E-mail me privately if you reply to this. Otherwise I may never read your reply.

Paul Lee, PT
Denmark
E-mail: healthbase@post.tele.dk
HF List Intro: http://www.hcrc.org/wwwboard/messages/197.shtml
The Quack-Files: http://www.geocities.com/healthbase

38

While I am not going to defend homeopathy in a medical sense (it sounds absurd to me, too), it can be defended on psychological grounds. We OFTEN pay more for items with no physically relevant improvements.

Take the baseball hit for a record breaking homerun. Take a line drawn on a piece of paper by Picasso. Take a dress once worn by Marilyn Monroe. People are willing to pay big bucks for these objects not because they in any way differ from their generic equivalents, but because of the psychological power endowed by the object’s memories.

If this makes sense to collectors, why shouldn’t it be convincing to patients?

39

Because people don’t die from not owning Marilyn Monroe’s dress.

Homeopaths are murderers, and should be treated as such.

John W. Kennedy
“Compact is becoming contract; man only earns and pays.”
– Charles Williams

40

Jill said:

Hmmmm. One might argue that belief in homeopathy necessarily excludes a person from at least one – if not both – of those descriptions…