# Homeschool family not educating kids expecting rapture: what should happen in court? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 3, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479 "2015-11-03T00:28:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479/21 "2015-11-03T16:45:53Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > If “homeschool” parents aren’t actually educating their kids, why does the reason matter—whether it’s because they’re expecting the rapture, or they want the kids to work all day in the family store or on the farm, or because they’re just too lazy to bother? In this case the parents say they are educating the kids, and the laws don’t appear to give the state any way to determine that. There is just an uncle who made the ‘rapture’ remark, so I suppose at best they can put him under oath and conduct an investigation. Like I said, this is the price you pay when you choose to be born in Texas. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479/22 "2015-11-03T16:53:25Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > In this case the parents say they are educating the kids, and the laws don’t appear to give the state any way to determine that. There is just an uncle who made the ‘rapture’ remark, so I suppose at best they can put him under oath and conduct an investigation. Like I said, this is the price you pay when you choose to be born in Texas. There is also the 17-year-old girl who ran away. If she had a credible story of substandard education, then maybe the state had a reason to step in. But like I said in my first post, without a thorough understanding of Texas law on the matter, we’re all just shooting in the dark. And even in Texas, that’s frowned upon. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479/23 "2015-11-03T16:57:49Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > What about when these adults grow up? I have been reading a lot about the FDLS branch of the Mormon church, and they have about a gazillion kids and encourage all the moms to go on public support “milking the beast”. We are paying for all that shit. I don’t really want kids growing up uneducated and ignorant and on my dime. > > Frankly I am not a big fan of homeschooling at all but if it must be done, there must be freakin standards. And I think all homeschooled children should have a requirement to spend at least a year or two in a normal school as a young adult. There is some precedent for religious enclaves educating their children in the US, precedents that have gone through the court system all the way to the top. Both the Amish and some Hasidic Jews educate their own children, often in a non-English language, essentially operating their own school systems. The Amish frequently don’t educate beyond 8th grade. However, _both_ groups are required to meet certain standards (including English instruction) such that if one of their children decides to leave the group they will have sufficient literacy and numeracy to enter the mainstream educational system and/or trade school and/or otherwise make a living and provide for themselves in the modern world. I think applicable standards should be set for homeschool groups, whether religious or not. Basically, absent some identified learning disability, the parents are responsible for making sure the kids learn to read, write, and do math which are still the core skills required in education and much of life. Then hold the parents and kids to that standard. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479/24 "2015-11-03T16:59:00Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Like I said, this is the price you pay when you choose to be born in Texas. Yeah, you’ve said it twice now…and it still makes no sense. Those kids didn’t chose jack, and it seems the only opportunity they may be getting is the chance to spread ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479/25 "2015-11-03T17:01:04Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I think applicable standards should be set for homeschool groups, whether religious or not. Basically, absent some identified learning disability, the parents are responsible for making sure the kids learn to read, write, and do math which are still the core skills required in education and much of life. Then hold the parents and kids to that standard. Ideally, I would, too. But… it isn’t fair to hold homeschooling parents to a higher standard than conventional schools. There are lots and lots of kids in public schools who can’t read, can’t do basic math etc. Why is there a remedy needed for the homeschool kid, but not for the public school kid? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479/26 "2015-11-03T17:03:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yeah, you’ve said it twice now…and it still makes no sense. Those kids didn’t chose jack, and it seems the only opportunity they may be getting is the chance to spread ignorance. That’s the way Texas is. They don’t give a damn. Now as John says, there may be a solution through the daughter who could testify that the kids weren’t being educated. But based on the statements we have about the law Texas doesn’t give a rat’s ass if kids there get an education. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479/27 "2015-11-03T17:14:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Ideally, I would, too. But… it isn’t fair to hold homeschooling parents to a higher standard than conventional schools. There are lots and lots of kids in public schools who can’t read, can’t do basic math etc. Why is there a remedy needed for the homeschool kid, but not for the public school kid? Because at least some of the kids in the public school get sufficient education, and they certainly are in a better situation than a kid who stays home and whom no one bothers to try to educate at all. ---
**Author:** ![Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambrosio_Spinola)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479/28 "2015-11-03T17:19:00Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > In this case the parents say they are educating the kids, and the laws don’t appear to give the state any way to determine that. There is just an uncle who made the ‘rapture’ remark, so I suppose at best they can put him under oath and conduct an investigation. Like I said, this is the price you pay when you choose to be born in Texas. Right. Ignoring the various questions about whether homeschooling is a good idea or not, Texas law on the subject goes back to the 1994 case of _Texas Education Agency v. Leeper_. Texas law requires minor children to attend public school unless they fall within certain statutory exceptions, one of which is that they are enrolled in a legitimate private or parochial school. The Texas Supreme Court in _Leeper_ held that parents who were schooling their children at home in “legitimate home schools” fell within that exception, and didn’t have to face truancy charges for not sending their children to public school. However, Texas law doesn’t require homeschooling parents to notify their school district of their homeschooling plans, to get approval of curricula, or to have their children take standardized tests. This particular case involves what actual methods school districts can use to demand that homeschooling parents are teaching a legitimate curriculum, as well as a bunch of arcane procedural stuff like immunity for the school district employees and whether the parents have to exhaust their administrative remedies before filing suit. All the briefs before the Texas Supreme Court are available [online](http://www.search.txcourts.gov/Case.aspx?cn=14-0732&coa=cossup) for those who really want know what the parties are arguing. Even the homeschooling parents here admit that they’re required to instruct their children, but they disagree that the district can demand to approve their curriculum, among other things. Accepting their construction I’m not entirely sure there would be any enforcement mechanism for the official requirements. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479/29 "2015-11-03T17:28:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Ideally, I would, too. But… it isn’t fair to hold homeschooling parents to a higher standard than conventional schools. There are lots and lots of kids in public schools who can’t read, can’t do basic math etc. Why is there a remedy needed for the homeschool kid, but not for the public school kid? If Texas has test-based graduation requirements, the way many states do, it is perfectly fair to hold home schooled kids to the same requirements. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479/30 "2015-11-03T17:29:24Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Why do you trust the “average parent” to do a better job than someone who’s been trained to be an educator? First, because [a ton of research](http://www.nheri.org/research/research-facts-on-homeschooling.html) unambiguously shows that home-schooled kids are better educated than public school kids. Second, because of common sense. Obviously a parent whose connection to the child is based on family love will care more about that child’s successful education, on average, than a government employee who’s there for the paycheck. Third, because there is no evidence that training people to be educators actually makes them better educators. In fact, [the evidence shows that it does not](http://tntp.org/assets/documents/TNTP-Mirage_2015.pdf). Districts are making a massive investment in teacher improvement—far larger than most people realize. We estimate that the districts we studied spend an average of nearly $18,000 per teacher, per year on development efforts. … Despite these efforts, most teachers do not appear to improve substantially from year to year—even though many have not yet mastered critical skills. Across the districts we studied, the evaluation ratings of nearly seven out of 10 teachers remained constant or declined over the last two to three years. … More importantly, many teachers’ professional growth plateaus while they still have ample room to improve: As many as half of teachers in their tenth year or beyond were rated below “effective” in core instructional practices, such as developing students’ critical thinking skills. … No type, amount or combination of development activities appears more likely than any other to help teachers improve substantially, including the “job-embedded,” “differentiated” variety that we and many others believed to be the most promising. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479/31 "2015-11-03T17:49:24Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > The case is now before the state Supreme Court. What do you think should happen? For that matter, what if the parents openly and proudly said they were expecting to be raptured, and claimed that was just part of their religious beliefs? Would that, and should that, change anything? I’m against homeschooling except for very specific medical issues. The State should always educate its population to ensure the least amount of bullshit being taught to kids ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479/32 "2015-11-03T17:57:01Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > While I trust the average parent to do a better job at home than the average teacher at school… > [@Monty](#): > > Why do you trust the “average parent” to do a better job than someone who’s been trained to be an educator? > [@Ruken](#): > > That’s not what I wrote. It is **exactly** what you wrote. > [@](#): > > Teaching one child is easier than teaching a class. Try it some time. If the would-be teacher is incompetent - and most “average parents” really don’t have any idea how to formally teach any subject - then class size is irrelevant. > [@](#): > > That said, I’ve not seen evidence that training educators significantly improves outcomes. There are many problems with the US ed system, and undertrained (and frankly, stupid) teachers are one of them. But you were speaking of average types here, not moron teachers and university professor parents. > [@](#): > > And my educators were certainly not selected from our best and brightest. Anything I say here will bring a warning. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479/33 "2015-11-03T18:13:17Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > It is **exactly** what you wrote. Average parent **at home** vs average teacher \*\* at school\*\*. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479/34 "2015-11-03T18:18:02Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > There are lots and lots of kids in public schools who can’t read, can’t do basic math etc. Why is there a remedy needed for the homeschool kid, but not for the public school kid? > [@Broomstick](#): > > Because at least some of the kids in the public school get sufficient education, and they certainly are in a better situation than a kid who stays home and whom no one bothers to try to educate at all. That answer makes no sense. People are getting their panties in a bunch about the possibility (not proved) that one home-schooling family is not adequately educating their children. In public schools, millions of children don’t get adequate education, according to the government itself. On average, home-schooled children do better than public school children by numerous measures. You say: “at least some of the kids in the public school get sufficient education.” What about the millions of kids in the public schools who don’t get sufficient education? What about millions of kids who dropped out of the public schools because their schools were so terrible? What about the millions of kids who had no chance of getting into college because their public high school was so terrible? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479/35 "2015-11-03T18:23:10Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > That answer makes no sense. People are getting their panties in a bunch about the possibility (not proved) that one home-schooling family is not adequately educating their children. In public schools, millions of children don’t get adequate education, according to the government itself. On average, home-schooled children do better than public school children by numerous measures. > > You say: “at least some of the kids in the public school get sufficient education.” What about the millions of kids in the public schools who don’t get sufficient education? What about millions of kids who dropped out of the public schools because their schools were so terrible? What about the millions of kids who had no chance of getting into college because their public high school was so terrible? What about them? If you have any actual ideas for reforms, that would be a good subject for another thread. Otherwise I don’t see the relevance here. This is a case of parents deliberately withholding education from their children. It doesn’t have anything to do with under-performing public schools. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479/36 "2015-11-03T18:51:27Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > If the would-be teacher is incompetent - and most “average parents” really don’t have any idea how to formally teach any subject - then class size is irrelevant. What is your evidence that formally trained teachers bring about better student outcomes than home-schooling pareents? If that is what you are asserting. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479/37 "2015-11-03T19:05:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What is your evidence that formally trained teachers bring about better student outcomes than home-schooling pareents? If that is what you are asserting. It’s not, but we’d have to start by finding agreement on what ‘formally trained teacher’ means to debate it. Myself, I’d argue on the basis of ‘well-trained teacher’ vs. the other categories, but that’s a diminishing breed. A vast number of teachers these days have little to no actual teaching/pedagogy training. Some barely have a degree in anything and are teaching - long term and essentially permanent - under ‘emergency credentials.’ ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479/38 "2015-11-03T19:13:34Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > A vast number of teachers these days have little to no actual teaching/pedagogy training. Some barely have a degree in anything and are teaching - long term and essentially permanent - under ‘emergency credentials.’ Curious readers who like data may find additional information at NCES from their SASS. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479/39 "2015-11-03T19:24:02Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > A vast number of teachers these days have little to no actual teaching/pedagogy training. Some barely have a degree in anything and are teaching - long term and essentially permanent - under ‘emergency credentials.’ And it’s only going to get worse as teaching becomes a less and less attractive career choice. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479/40 "2015-11-13T03:15:10Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > First, because [a ton of research](http://www.nheri.org/research/research-facts-on-homeschooling.html) unambiguously shows that home-schooled kids are better educated than public school kids. No they don’t. Every single study that Brian Ray has ever done has been incredibly biased by self-selection and/or self-reporting. The reality is that there are almost no controlled, longitudinal, random-sample (or complete-universe) studies of homeschoolers in existence. I did see a few some years back that showed (based on full-state participation in maybe the Iowa Assessment?) that homeschoolers score a little higher a verbal and fairly lower on math… That result, at least, is intuitive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschool-family-not-educating-kids-expecting-rapture-what-should-happen-in-court/736479.md?page=3)