# Homeschooling **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2001, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschooling/59958 "2001-03-29T12:22:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2001, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschooling/59958/41 "2001-04-02T21:52:39Z")
People who responded to Dr. Ray’s survey self selected themselves to respond. So, if your kid was not successful and you didn’t respond due to that (or if you were passive and not likely to respond to the survey), your kid is not being represented in the results. He sent out 6,000 surveys and got 1,657 back - a very good response rate for a survey. I don’t think you CAN get good data from this group without doing things that many of them would see as being serious intrusions into their lives. Perhaps a pertainent question is, “do we, as a society, have a prevailing interesting in requiring these students to take standardized test and report their scores to the state?” That would get better data (still, you’d have the folks not in compliance with the law, but the data would likely be better). ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2001, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschooling/59958/42 "2001-04-03T06:05:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yosemitebabe \* > This can start to be a “what hell school is” thread, and I am not intending that. What I am saying is that you gotta make sure that the kid is missing out in something that should not be missed. Being stuck in a Hell where all you learn is that there is no protection from bullies and no justice (a lesson I did learn in school, and which took me a while to overcome) is definitely WORTH missing. Believe me. The reality is the world is a cruel place. There are bullies all through life. The guy in college who steals your paper and turns it in as his own. The asshole boss who likes to ridicule his employees. At some point, your kid is going to have to learn how to deal with them. You don’t help your kid by sheltering them their entire life. When I was growing up, my mom told me to deal with bullies by ignoring them. My dad showed me the basics of of to protect myself and throw a decent punch. I figured out on my own which approach worked for a given situation. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freedom \* > Not only do we disagree on this, but we also probably disagree on the way to deal with the bullies, drugs and alcohol. There is no reason an 8 year old should be thrown to the wolves. > … > > … > Would you mind explaining how my children are going to manage to grow up without getting any experiernce? It may be different than yours, but then so is every other kid’s childhood who didn’t grow up in your country. > … > > … > What makes you think I’m going to shelter them? Was every child in the world born before public schooling sheltered? Basically, you are creating this “perfect little world” for them. There are no bullies. No negative influences. Pretty much nothing to ever test their character. Your child will never be exposed to any values, ideas, or subject matter that were not filtered through you. You have to be pretty arrogant to think that have the answer to everything. At some point, your kid will have to deal with subjects like drugs, bullies, racism, etc as more than abstract concepts. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freedom \* > While your at it, could you explain the “superiority nonsense” thing? I’m holding my breath to see what rock that line crawled out from under. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Badtz Maru \* > Not only could I give my kids an advantage academically, I want to try to lead them away from a lot of elements of modern culture that are unavoidable at a school. I’m not going to shelter them from the world as prepare them for it ahead of time. I’m also going to give them a **nice healthy superiority complex** - that is, if I can. It crawled out from under Badtz’s rock. Have him explain it. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freedom \* > > > [@](#): > > > > If he or he does everything at home how can s/he possibly learn to function in an idiotic bureaucracy? > > > > Where can the child learn that it’s not what you do that is important but what other people think you are doing. > > > > How can a child learn the most valuable skill in the the modern world, the ability to BS your way through anything. > > > > Children must learn to do mindlessly inane activities that serve no end other than to prove that they are willing to do mindlessly inane activities that serve no purpose if they are told to, and also to prove to the state that they have not stopped breathing. “It will prepare them for their future careers working in our nations mills and factories."- Principal Skinner, The Simpsons “Me have bad English? That’s unpossible.” - Ralph Wiggum, The Simpsons > [@](#): > > For instance a homeschooler will never be graded in high school on how they colored a map in despite the fact they **no** nothing about what the map is shoowing. Did this person go to regular school or homeschool? 🙂 > [@](#): > > We are a mixed couple, and our circle of friends is mixed. Our child will never miss out on diversity. Your child will miss out on learning how to make friends who aren’t introduced to him by his parents. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2001, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschooling/59958/43 "2001-04-03T07:01:35Z")
> [@](#): > > The reality is the world is a cruel place. There are bullies all through life. The guy in college who steals your paper and turns it in as his own. The asshole boss who likes to ridicule his employees. At some point, your kid is going to have to learn how to deal with them. You don’t help your kid by sheltering them their entire life. The hellish experiences I endured in school rarely had any relation to the _real_ world. Sure, the world is a cruel place. I didn’t get into the art show that I worked so hard for. That’s tough, but a good lesson to learn while you’re still young. I am not the prettiest girl. OK, so there’s more than beauty, get over it. Strangers on the street can be rude. That’s the cruel world for you. But deal with it. All these things I needed to learn. But I believe all these things can be learned without the hell and torment of some school settings. Being trapped in a room full of little adolescent demons who torment you, physically harm you, while an adult (the only authority figure around) looks the other way does NOT reflect any reality I’ve experienced in my adulthood. It has never reflected anything I’ve experienced since. It is just a miserable memory that has scarred me, and has taken me quite a while to overcome. I did not learn how to “cope” with the Real Cruel World from these experiences. Among many warped things I learned, I learned that authority figures are useless and ineffectual. When I was molested (I guess you could call it that - “aggressively groped” to be exact) as an adolescent, I didn’t tell anyone. I had it in my head that it would be useless to do so. I’d NEVER seen any justice done towards the bullies, so why bother? I worried that all it would do is get the groping creeps to target me again. Where did I learn that from? The classroom. Do you think that was a good lesson for a young female person to learn? Is this your idea of the Real World that kids so desperately need to learn about, and should not be sheltered from? ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2001, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschooling/59958/44 "2001-04-03T07:23:09Z")
My experience in school was nothing like ‘real life’. As messed up as the world is, it’s nowhere near as bad as school can be. When folks like me say they don’t want their kid exposed to the pressures and follys of public school, some people assume that I am wanting to shelter my children from all contact with their peers. I don’t plan on that. I think my kids will have plenty of opportunities to learn how to deal with bullying, peer pressure, etc. from their contact with kids outside of school. They can learn how to deal with authority figures through their dealings with me. As to the ‘superiority complex’ comment, I truly mean it. I want my kid to think he or she is better than most other people, and I believe it will probably be true. The only alternatives are to believe they are average, or to believe that they are inferior. I was stuck with the latter for most of my life. I was smarter than most of the kids in the various schools I went to, tested at 4th year of college level in standardized tests from 3rd grade on, and my IQ is in the top tenth of the top percent. Despite this (or because of this) I spent most of my childhood and all of my teenage years thinking there was something wrong with me because of the way my peers and teachers ground me down. This carried over into my adulthood, I spent years working low-paying parttime jobs because I lacked the ambition to try to get anything better, I was constantly depressed and relied on drugs to make life bearable and to relate to my friends, I attempted suicide once, contemplated it daily, and was reckless about my own safety because I attached no value to myself. Public school did this to me. As soon as my self-opinion improved my life took off, now I make decent money, have a lovely wife, nice apartment, etc…but I realize that I could have had all this years ago if I hadn’t been led to believe I was worthless, and that wouldn’t have happened had I been home schooled. Hopefully my kids won’t have to go through that, but even if they are I’m going to try to help them with my own experience as much as possible. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2001, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschooling/59958/45 "2001-04-03T08:22:23Z")
Good post Badtz, and far be it for me to advise you on how to rear your (future) children. (But here I go anyway…) I have seen what happens when kids are raised thinking they are “superior”. It’s not pretty. Especially since these kids are never superior in _everything_ (but they’ll still think they are.) The cruel let-down they experience when the reality hits them that they are not “all that” in _everything_ can be pretty harmful. And often these kids go on to have hang-ups of a different kind. There needs to be some sort of delicate balance with this sort of thing. A person should have a lot of belief in themselves and their abilities. But, they should be able to recognize their weaknesses, without obsessing over them. And they should be able to recognize that there are people out there that possess strengths that they do not. I think this is what would be called “healthy” humility, and I’m all for it. Well, sorry for the hijack there… ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2001, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschooling/59958/46 "2001-04-03T13:39:52Z")
An alternate experience… I went to public high school…it was hell…I was ridiculed…all the rest. I had few friends. I was depressed. I left school early and started college early. College was not like high school. It was great. Got to real life. It was worse than high school. My boss sexually harrassed me. I was riduculed by my coworkers who were intimidated by me. I was surrounded by small minds once again. - At least with high school there was an end in sight and I wasn’t worried about getting fired for not putting out and not being able to make my house payment. I went through several jobs finding a good fit (and changing myself along the way to make myself a better fit.) I was single and dating and had to put to good use that “jerk radar” and bullshit detector I’d developed in high school. Glad I went to public school (how I begged my parents to get me out of there). It really did prepare me for people can be jerks and you have to do useless things in life to get through. Yeah, high school can really suck. But it does have some up sides, and can be valuable. For anyone thinking about homeschooling their kids - it is a huge committment. Weigh it well. Look at the cons as well as the pros. Look at your kids needs as well as your own. I think you are doing yourself and you kids a disservice if you don’t even have them yet and have already decided to homeschool - you don’t know their temperment, you don’t know what it is like to parent 24 hours a day - you are making a decision based on your high school experience and what you see of the public school system from the outside. That doesn’t seem to different to me than a dad who didn’t make first string football and is pushing his two year old to practice. Your children are not you. Schools change a lot over time - even just from year to year as the makeup of a class changes. On the other hand, don’t assume automatically that public school is the only place for your kids. Some kids need something different. Some schools are not appropriate places for kids. Homeschooling or private schools are both possible options under those circumstances. My kids are still little. Before I became a parent, I had homeschool thoughts. Now I know I don’t have the patience or drive for it. I also know already that my son is too gregarious for it - he requires a lot of social interaction. I also assumed that “I’m bright, my hubby’s bright, we will have bright kids and they won’t do well at public school” — Well, my son is adopted, my genes aren’t contributing to much brain power (though he seems bright enough, who knows). My daughter is too young to tell, but some of my bright friends have not so bright kids - it doen’t always follow. ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2001, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschooling/59958/47 "2001-04-03T16:33:47Z")
**msmith537** I find it irionic that you don’t see the similarities of the actual chioce between homeschooling and sending your kids off to public school. You endow me with magical powers to create a Utopia around my child, micro-manage every detail of his life, and have it all come out to some perfectly fantasy-like childhood that would (presumably) end abrubtly at 18 when he is tossed out into the real world.(whatever that is) Yet somehow, you prefer a system where the parent makes an equivalent choice about about their child’s future and the people he will meet (sending them to public school vs. homeschooling). The school will POORLY attempt to micromange their lives, schedule every minute of their day, and trap them with all sorts of people they would never willingly associate with. Whether or not they educate the child more or less than you would have is irrelevant. I maintain that at the point where you have to make a choice between sending your child to PS or keep them home for homeschooling, you are making a choice that has equal relevance over their future. ie: You are no more “controlling” and “sheltering” of your child when you homeschool than you are when you send them off to public school. You are merely choosing to make decisions regarding your child on a individual basis, as opposed to the (supposedly) most efficient manner of educating the greatest number of chidren. > [@](#): > > Pretty much nothing to ever test their character. I think it is insane to imagine that any person could raise a child without the child ever having their charachter tested. Homeschooling is not some suspension of reality where the real world refuses to intrude. > [@](#): > > At some point, your kid will have to deal with subjects like drugs, bullies, racism, etc as more than abstract concepts. Ohh… You see, I was talking about HOMESCHOOLING… You seem to be talking about locking your child in the basement and then setting him free at 18. I still fail to understand why you think homeschooling could ever be as utopian as you suggest. > [@](#): > > Your child will miss out on learning how to make friends who aren’t introduced to him by his parents. This line of thinking is getting old to me. If he goes to public school, then will he only meet people the school chooses to introduce to him? I’ll say it again. I’m talking about HOMESCHOOLING, not locking him in the basement. I live in NJ. It’s a pretty densely populated state. I don’t live in Montana where the nearest neighbor is 3 miles away. If I even WANTED to control my child in the manner you’re proposing, I don’t think it could be done. The funny thing is, I see homeschooling as a giving the child MORE freedom and potential, not as a means to micromange every aspect of their lives. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2001, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschooling/59958/48 "2001-04-04T03:09:47Z")
Freedom - Who are all these people your child would never willingly associate? I hate to tell you this, but if you in a school of 1000 people and you can’t find at least one person you want to associate with, the problem is probably with you. Part of life is dealing with people you can’t stand. I find half of my coworkers stupid and abrasive but I still have to work with them. In public school, your kid will probably have a dozen different teachers. Some will be good and some will suck. Each teacher will have different philosophies, ideals, etc. In home school, your kid gets one teacher. You. And quite frankly, you seem to have a lot of baggage regarding your school experiences. So who’s your kid going to meet in home school? All the other kids in the neighborhood will be at regular school during the day (when you should be teaching junior math and social studies anyway). So when all the other kids get off the bus in the afternoon, are they going to hang out with the home school boy? Badtz - Why don’t you teach your kid how to get along with other people without thinking he’s better than them. There’s a difference between acting confident and acting supperior. Going into high school acting supperior to everyone is a good way to catch a beating. ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2001, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschooling/59958/49 "2001-04-04T12:51:48Z")
Cause you see…you just have to be on crack the way you are posting. > [@](#): > > Who are all these people your child would never willingly associate? I hate to tell you this, but if you in a school of 1000 people and you can’t find at least one person you want to associate with, the problem is probably with you. Where did I ever say this? > [@](#): > > And quite frankly, you seem to have a lot of baggage regarding your school experiences. I can’t see any evidence from this thread, or any of my posts on the board that I have any a lot of baggage from High School. Is my desire to homeschool evidence enough for you, are there specific things I posted that make you think this, or is it just the crack? > [@](#): > > So when all the other kids get off the bus in the afternoon, are they going to hang out with the home school boy? To be honest, it sounds like YOU are the one with issues. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2001, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschooling/59958/50 "2001-04-04T13:36:38Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Freedom \* Who are all these people your child would never willingly associate? I hate to tell you this, but if you in a school of 1000 people and you can’t find at least one person you want to associate with, the problem is probably with you. Where did I ever say this? > [@](#): > > The school will POORLY attempt to micromange their lives, schedule every minute of their day, **and trap them with all sorts of people they would never willingly associate with.** Whether or not they educate the child more or less than you would have is irrelevant. thats you buddy > [@](#): > > To be honest, it sounds like YOU are the one with issues. This ad hominum attack brought to you by freedom ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2001, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschooling/59958/51 "2001-04-04T17:29:40Z")
Surely you can understand the difference between “not being able to find one person in a thousand you would willingly asociate with” and "traps them with all sorts of people they would never willingly associate with. " I don’t think the average person comes close to keeping in touch with anything but a handful of people from HS after they graduate. If you want to claim that there are not people schooled together in the same buliding that would not hang out socially later on in life, then I think you are way off base here. I never said I never had any friends in HS, I never said there wasn’t a person I didn’t like knowing in my school. My point was not about the positive influences, but about all the NEGATIVE ones you are forced to spend 4 years with. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2001, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschooling/59958/52 "2001-04-04T17:51:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freedom \* > > > [@](#): > > > > Who are all these people your child would never willingly associate? I hate to tell you this, but if you in a school of 1000 people and you can’t find at least one person you want to associate with, the problem is probably with you. > > Where did I ever say this? I think drachillix covered this one. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freedom \* > > > [@](#): > > > > So when all the other kids get off the bus in the afternoon, are they going to hang out with the home school boy? > > To be honest, it sounds like YOU are the one with issues. Just being realistic. While you kid is at home, all his peers are in school building relationships with each other. It just makes it that much more difficult for him to make friends. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freedom \* > Is my desire to homeschool evidence enough for you, are there specific things I posted that make you think this, or is it just the crack? At no point did I personally insult you. If this is how you react to people who disagree with you, it’s no wonder you had problems in high school. ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2001, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschooling/59958/53 "2001-04-04T17:59:31Z")
> [@](#): > > I think drachillix covered this one. Maybe it’s just me, but that point doesn’t even seem remotely covered. ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2001, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschooling/59958/54 "2001-04-06T01:46:02Z")
…but anyway… 🙂 [Homeless Homeschooler Aces SAT](http://thekcrachannel.com/sac/news/localnews/stories/news-localnews-57467220010405-100458.html) [sub]Does that make him street schooled?[/sub] > [@](#): > > …snip… > > Trevor Loflin (pictured, left) should feel good. The 17-year-old scored a perfect 800 on the verbal section and 800 on the math section of the Scholastic Aptitude Test. > …snip… > Loflin not only got the score without the benefit of a home, he got it without a school, because he is home-schooled. He said that his mom has been a great teacher. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homeschooling/59958.md?page=2)