# Homo Genes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 11, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440 "2005-05-11T19:09:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SimonMoon5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@SimonMoon5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SimonMoon5)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440/21 "2005-05-12T01:57:56Z")
> [@DesertGeezer](#): > > This is, of course, unscientific, but if homosexuality is _not_ genetic can anyone explain why any person would choose a lifestyle which cuts him/her off from most people, and often, and especially from his/her own family members? If a person has a choice it makes no sense that s/he would make that one. To me, that sounds like an overly simplistic “either/or” there. Either homosexuality is genetic or it is a choice. Imho, most of the non-genetic personality traits that a person has are not things that are actively chosen. Does a shy person _choose_ to be shy? Or is shyness genetic? Etc. I’ve heard of nature vs nurture, but I’ve never heard of nature vs choice. I can oversimplify in the other direction, too. Here we go: Homosexuality clearly is not genetic. Homosexual people do not reproduce. Therefore, “gay genes” could not be passed on to offspring, and there would not be any homosexual people alive today. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440/22 "2005-05-12T02:19:12Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I’d believe 1,000+ species where some (or even all) individuals engage in homosexual acts at times. I question how many species have individuals who, like many gay humans, are exclusively homosexual. Does your cite propose that? One problem with Bruce Bagemihl’s ideas appears to be (I say that since I haven’t read his book but am relying on reports such as those posted here and on websites) that he doesn’t differentiate sufficiently between animal sexuality (fairly basic) and human sexuality (pretty sophisticated). So far as I know, for example, no non-human animal (even an intelligent one who’s reputed to indulge in homosexual activities, such as a dolphin) has ever written a book about its sexuality, or even given an interview, even to a fellow dolphin. The dangers of anthropomorphising animal behaviour is very great. When they for example rub each other’s genital regions, is this evidence for the type of homosexuality practised by humans? One specific question I have for those who have read the book is which male animals practise anal penetration? What patterns have emerged regarding the behaviour of the dyadic participants? in other words, is one typically (or invariantly) a top and the other a bottom, or are the roles interchangeable? If there is no evidence for any of this, then, given that anal penetration is the prototypical physical act of human male homosexuals, then how valid is it to equate sexual activity between two non-human animals of the same species with sexual activity between two human beings? How significant too is the fact that human beings have cognitive, volitional and affective capabilities well beyond those of all other animals? ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440/23 "2005-05-12T06:25:07Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > [http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/sexorient/twins.html](http://www.worldpolicy.org/globalrights/sexorient/twins.html) > > ``` > * 52% of identical (monozygotic) twins of homosexual men were likewise homosexual > * 22% of fraternal (dizygotic) twins were likewise homosexual > * 11% of adoptive brothers of homosexual men were likewise homosexual > * 48% of identical (monozygotic) twins of homosexual women were likewise homosexual (lesbian) > * 16% of fraternal (dizygotic) twins were likewise homosexual > * 6% of adoptive sisters of homosexual women were likewise homosexual > > ``` I think the twin studies are particularly revealing; they suggest, but do not prove, a strong genetic component tied in with something else. It’s suggested by other studies that the prenatal environment influences sexuality, and in some cases that may not be the result of genetics at all. There are environment variables as well. It’s not a secret that sometimes trauma in childhood can affect people’s sexual orientation - though what percentage of gay people were “made” rather than “born”, it’s impossible to guess. The evidence suggests that there’s a myriad of factors that all add up, and we’re a very long way off from being able to identify all of them and how they interact. > [@roger thornhill](#): > > One specific question I have for those who have read the book is which male animals practise anal penetration? What patterns have emerged regarding the behaviour of the dyadic participants? in other words, is one typically (or invariantly) a top and the other a bottom, or are the roles interchangeable? If there is no evidence for any of this, then, given that anal penetration is the prototypical physical act of human male homosexuals, then how valid is it to equate sexual activity between two non-human animals of the same species with sexual activity between two human beings? How significant too is the fact that human beings have cognitive, volitional and affective capabilities well beyond those of all other animals? You demonstrate the typical straight man’s obsession with gay men and assfucking. I suppose it wouldn’t help to pull out statistics to show that many gay men don’t practice anal sex at all. And outside of long-term, monogamous relationships, I suspect a great majority of gay men nowadays don’t practice it. While it may be the “prototypical sexual act of male homosexuals”, there’s a lot more straight people out there doing it than gay people. I also don’t see what possible relevance your concept of sex roles could possibly have in this discussion. I don’t know how many animals have been shown to contain members that _exclusively_ pair up with the same sex. But it happens, and one of my friends owns a pair of lesbian dart frogs. There’s plenty of evidence that it happens, at least with some species. It’s difficult to observe an animal for a long enough period of time to be certain that it is _exclusively_ homosexual. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440/24 "2005-05-12T06:55:54Z")
> [@DesertGeezer](#): > > This is, of course, unscientific, but if homosexuality is _not_ genetic can anyone explain why any person would choose a lifestyle which cuts him/her off from most people, and often, and especially from his/her own family members? Again… genetic /= biological. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440/25 "2005-05-12T06:59:13Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > It’s not a secret that sometimes trauma in childhood can affect people’s sexual orientation Agreed that psychological factors also merit consideration. > [@](#): > > You demonstrate the typical straight man’s obsession with gay men and assfucking. Now, now, guessing at the state of mind of other people is a very high-risk habit to form, and a hard habit to break. Speaking of high-risk habits, the work-safe [stdworld website](http://www.stdworld.com/Anal%20sex.htm) has some sketchy information about homosexual and heterosexual uptake (intake?) of anal sex: > [@stdworld](#): > > A study (based on 100,000 females - Redbook Magazine) revealed that 43% of the women had tried anal sex with their partners at least once. > > Studies show that 59-95% of male homosexuals have engaged in anal sex at least one time (The Kinsey Institute). So the fellahs would appear to be ahead. > [@Excalibre](#): > > …one of my friends owns a pair of lesbian dart frogs Tell your friend to get his Canon out and post the photos here! ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Kenneth\_Noisewater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@Dr.Kenneth\_Noisewater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Kenneth_Noisewater)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440/26 "2005-05-12T08:48:17Z")
> [@DesertGeezer](#): > > This is, of course, unscientific, but if homosexuality is _not_ genetic can anyone explain why any person would choose a lifestyle which cuts him/her off from most people, and often, and especially from his/her own family members? If a person has a choice it makes no sense that s/he would make that one. Drug users, cult members, hermits… let’s see, oh, suicide… ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440/27 "2005-05-12T11:06:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Drug users, cult members, hermits… let’s see, oh, suicide… Drug users and cult members do not choose to cut themselves off from society. They simply shift to a different social circle. Hermits (real ones) make up a vnishingly small number of people and the reasons for any individual becoming a hermit can be widely varied. Suicide is not a “lifestyle,” it is a single event from which their is no option to reconsider the choice. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440/28 "2005-05-12T12:11:56Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Speaking of high-risk habits, the work-safe [stdworld website](http://www.stdworld.com/Anal%20sex.htm) has some sketchy information about homosexual and heterosexual uptake (intake?) of anal sex:So the fellahs would appear to be ahead. Oh, I wasn’t arguing that _percentage-wise_ we were losing the buttsex race. 🙂 But numerically, y’all are far outstripping us. The 60% or so estimate you found gibes well with what I’ve read elsewhere. It suggests pretty strongly that anal sex is not exactly universal among gay men - common, but hardly necessary and inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440/29 "2005-05-12T12:12:10Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Gay Slugs of the world, unite! Sounds like some of the dates I’ve been on… ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440/30 "2005-05-12T19:52:39Z")
> [@Mapache](#): > > Slugs are EVEN WORSE THAN GAY!! The SLIMY HELLBOUND PERVERTS are… > brace yourselves…HERMAPHRODITES!!! [Re: how does the mollusks reproduction system work](http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/Feb2003/1044988464.Gb.r.html) So when the Republicans start talking about a “slippery slope,” are they referring to snail slime? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440/31 "2005-05-12T20:10:20Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > So when the Republicans start talking about a “slippery slope,” are they referring to snail slime? Or santorum. Either definition, actually. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2005, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440/32 "2005-05-12T20:22:37Z")
It isn’t astroglide that makes the slope slippery? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440/33 "2005-05-13T01:39:55Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > The 60% or so estimate you found gibes well with what I’ve read elsewhere. Quibble - well, it is 59-95%, so the mid-point would be 77%. > [@Scally](#): > > Anal sex is not exactly universal among gay men. So you guys can’t get any action either? Join the club, sweetie. > [@Scally](#): > > Common, but hardly necessary and inevitable I love it when you talk dirty! ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440/34 "2005-05-13T04:13:51Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Quibble - well, it is 59-95%, so the mid-point would be 77%. Whoops, misread it. Somehow I thought the hyphen was a decimal point (though I should have realized there couldn’t be that much precision in a survey. 95% is ridiculously high (hell, there has to be more than 5% of us who aren’t getting laid on a regular basis. The number doesn’t even pass the plausibility test.) Naturally, surveys on sexual behavior are difficult methodologically speaking. However, 60%, maybe 70%, is much more in keeping with the mainstream research on the subject. > [@roger thornhill](#): > > So you guys can’t get any action either? As much as heteros seem to associate gay men with buttsex, it’s _not_ something everyone chooses to engage in, for a variety of reasons. Some don’t because of the astronomically higher risk of contracting HIV. Some - and this might be a wee bit of a shock to you, rog - just don’t like it. At any rate, with you heteros’ own prodigious enjoyment of buttlovin’, one can certainly see that it’s not a reliable test of queerness. It’s not part and parcel of being queer, so it doesn’t make much sense to expect it to offer much insight into animal homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440/35 "2005-05-13T05:23:03Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > [Anal sex] is not part and parcel of being queer, so it doesn’t make much sense to expect it to offer much insight into animal homosexuality. Really? Even if that were to be the case - and I have a feeling that for other male homosexuals their definition of a part and a parcel may differ from yours - the point remains that, according to Bagemihl, there is scientifically-documented evidence of anal sex among (non-human) animals. If this is the case, then, given Bagemihl’s thesis that homosexuality occurs in nature and so human homosexuality cannot be called unnatural (it’s all part of ‘natural diversity’, to quote from the title of his book), you’d think there would be inter-connectivity between animal anal sex and human anal sex. And you’d also think that there would be insights to be gained from the research data obtained. For an earlier discussion of this and related issues, interested parties may see [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=312029). ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440/36 "2005-05-13T15:27:35Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > lesbian dart frogs Band name! ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440/37 "2005-05-13T15:59:55Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Really? Even if that were to be the case - and I have a feeling that for other male homosexuals their definition of a part and a parcel may differ from yours - the point remains that, according to Bagemihl, there is scientifically-documented evidence of anal sex among (non-human) animals. If this is the case, then, given Bagemihl’s thesis that homosexuality occurs in nature and so human homosexuality cannot be called unnatural (it’s all part of ‘natural diversity’, to quote from the title of his book), you’d think there would be inter-connectivity between animal anal sex and human anal sex. And you’d also think that there would be insights to be gained from the research data obtained. > > For an earlier discussion of this and related issues, interested parties may see [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=312029). You’re doing a lot of stretching here, **Roger Thornhill.** It’s syllogistic logic to think any of these is true: A)gay human sex=butt sex B)animal sex=human sex c)gay animal sex=gay animal butt sex There may be some common ground, but they are not identical actions anymore than primates socializing while picking nits out of hair equaling debating genetics on a message board. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440/38 "2005-05-13T16:20:14Z")
> [@](#): > > anymore than primates socializing while picking nits out of hair equaling debating genetics on a message board. You sure about that? ---
**Author:** ![smaft](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c2a13f/32.png) [@smaft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smaft)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440/39 "2005-05-13T16:27:57Z")
I wasn’t going to get in on this, but oh, well. > [@roger thornhill](#): > > I have a feeling that for other male homosexuals their definition of a part and a parcel may differ from yours… Based on discussions with the male homosexuals I know, I am quite certain your feeling is incorrect. > [@roger thornhill](#): > > …according to Bagemihl, there is scientifically-documented evidence of anal sex among (non-human) animals… And, **roger** , you’ll be happy to know the book does, in fact, include pictures of this. > [@roger thornhill](#): > > …Bagemihl’s thesis that homosexuality occurs in nature and so human homosexuality cannot be called unnatural… His thesis is nothing of the kind. In fact, he spends a considerable amount of time distinguishing between homosexual behavior in animals and homosexuality in humans- he explicitly undertakes “overt disavowal of … human connotations and extensive consideration of the inappropriatenes of making unwarranted human-animal comparisons” (page 4). ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440/40 "2005-05-13T18:36:07Z")
Yo! Queermo dudes! rog here is claiming that anal sex is one of the defining features of homosexuality - that it’s a central characteristic, “part and parcel” being the words used. Pointing out that not all gay men have anal sex, and very few lesbians, has had no effect. He wishes to get the opinions of other gay people. So is butt lovin’ one of the central parts of identity as gay? Are you only in it for the butt sex? Is there any truth to his claims that anal sex is some inherent, fundamental part of being gay? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-genes/303440.md?page=3)