# Homo Sapiens / Neanderthal hybrids? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288 "2005-01-23T20:10:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288/1 "2005-01-23T20:10:53Z")
New Scientist: > [@](#): > > **The ancestors of today’s Europeans may have interbred with another early human species, which would account for a peculiar stretch of DNA** > > THE ancestors of today’s Europeans interbred with another early human species. That’s one explanation being proposed to explain the discovery of a peculiar stretch of DNA in some modern Europeans. > As part of an extensive gene-mapping programme, researchers at deCODE Genetics in Reykjavik, Iceland, have been searching for places in the human genome where chunks of DNA containing many genes get turned back-to-front. One of these inversions, on chromosome 17, caught their eye because it turns up in about 20 per cent of Europeans, yet is rare in Africans and almost absent in Asians. > When the researchers looked at the families of nearly 30,000 Icelanders, they found that women who have the inversion had, on average, 3.5 per cent more children than women who did not. “That is a very significant impact when you think of an evolutionary timescale,” says Kari Stefansson, deCODE’s chief executive. [http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18524833.800](http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18524833.800) Well they don’t specify Neanderthal in that article but if not Neanderthal what else could it be? I thought the general consensus on this, for some reason controversial, issue was that no such hybridisation had taken place. Which was also the conclusion of another German DNA (mitochondrial) study a few years back. On the other hand Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals did coexists in Europe for many thousands of years and there were some very interesting finds of possible hybrid bones in Portugal a few years back, some speculate red hair and freckles are Neanderthal traits – and let’s just admit it: Homo Sapiens men will screw anything remotely human-like – so why not a Neanderthal? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288/2 "2005-01-23T20:17:05Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > . . . and let’s just admit it: Homo Sapiens men will screw anything remotely human-like – so why not a Neanderthal? Let’s just see what happens if they ever do find a living population of _Homo florensiensis!_ There’s already a subgenre of “dwarf porn,” so why not “hobbit porn”? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288/3 "2005-01-23T20:18:50Z")
Sorry, that’s _Homo floresiensis._[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo\_floresiensis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_floresiensis) ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288/4 "2005-01-23T20:29:04Z")
I see no reason for Neanderthals and Cromagnons to not interbreed. If you peel away the charicatures, they probably were not very different in genetic makeup or appearance. Look at the range of human appearance today - tall, short, thin, heavy, muscular, etc. On the average, Neanderthals are believed to be more muscular (better looking?) while Cromagnons are believed to have finer features (better looking?). Besides, red hair and freckles can be kind of cute. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288/5 "2005-01-23T20:33:05Z")
Neandertals and modern humans coexisted in SW Europe for over 10,000 years, as has been known for 25 years now. A cave at [Zafarraya](http://www.archaeology.org/9509/newsbriefs/neander.html), Spain, near Malaga, has Neandertal remains down to about 30,000 YBP. There seems to be [significant evidence](http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/96/13/7117) for Neandertal/modern hybrids, as referenced in this 1999 article by Tattersall and Schwartz. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288/6 "2005-01-23T20:42:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Let’s just see what happens if they ever do find a living population of _Homo florensiensis!_ There’s already a subgenre of “dwarf porn,” so why not “hobbit porn”? 😃 Yeah. Not to speak of furries. And it’s got to say something about us when “zoophilia” and “bestiality” returns more than seven million hits on google. This link (from wikipedia) has a reconstruction of a Neanderthal boy. Looks a bit strange at first, but I recon he could walk down the street without much notice. [The Neanderthal theory of autism](http://www.rdos.net/eng/asperger.htm) Older Wikipedia versions of articles on Neanderthals actually had a fair bit about hybridisation, now any mention of this has been edited out. I should have expected at least a refutation. Is it possible to view older Wikipedia articles – or only the comments? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288/7 "2005-01-23T21:47:50Z")
I seem to recall reading that there is now some evidence that populations of _H. sapiens_ and _H. erectus_ may have co-existed in close proximity, but that evidence is Asian, not European. Still, if you’re looking _possibilities_ that may be another one. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288/8 "2005-01-23T21:52:33Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Besides, red hair and freckles can be kind of cute. How can anyone know whether the Neanderthals had freckles, or what color their hair was? Or even whether they had hair at all? It wouldn’t be apparent from their bones, would it? ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288/9 "2005-01-23T21:55:56Z")
Probalem #1 of this idea is that there is no archaeological evidence supporting interbreeding. No skeletal remains have been found that suggest a Neandetal crossbreeding. Of course, that doesn’t rule it out, but it restricts it to hypothesis. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288/10 "2005-01-23T22:13:05Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > let’s just admit it: Homo Sapiens men will screw anything remotely human-like – so why not a Neanderthal? I’d say it’s more likely Homo Sapiens women are hussies, and will screw anything remotely human-like, as evidenced by some of the knuckle-dragging thugs I’ve seen my women friends date. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SusanStoHelit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@SusanStoHelit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SusanStoHelit)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288/11 "2005-01-24T00:05:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How can anyone know whether the Neanderthals had freckles, or what color their hair was? Or even whether they had hair at all? It wouldn’t be apparent from their bones, would it? My guess is that there are more genetic similarities between Neanderthals and red-haired human populations than with other groups, but I had never heard that factoid before today. ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288/12 "2005-01-24T00:54:49Z")
Where the hell did this “Neandertals had red hair and freckles” meme come from, anyway? Anyway, looking on actual fact, there are vast differences in bone structure, notably in the skull, around the eyes and jaw, as well as brain size. As I said, there no shred of evidence of any of these traits being found among their contemporaries, or evidence that interbreeding was even possible (given that Neandertal are expected to have longer periods of pregnancy etc)… there are probably a number of things that don’t fit, and **absolutely nothing** aside from proximity that does fit. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288/13 "2005-01-24T01:45:57Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > (given that Neandertal are expected to have longer periods of pregnancy etc)… Never heard that before. Cite? In Robert J. Sawyer’s Neanderthal Parallax trilogy (about the discovery of a parallel-universe Earth where humans went extinct and Neanderthals survived to develop a civilization), it turn out that the two species have different numbers of chromosomes, so interbreeding is impossible without genetic-engineering technology. (There’s absolutely no proof of that, of course, it’s just a plot device, but worth considering as a hypothesis.) The first volume, _Hominids,_ won Sawyer the 2003 Hugo Award for Best Novel. ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288/14 "2005-01-24T01:48:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Never heard that before. Cite? Um, off the top of my head, The Third Chimpanzee. I could look for others if you are one who finds Dr. Diamond untrustworthy, but I as I mentioned in another thread, I feel horrible, so it is movie and bed time after this post. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288/15 "2005-01-24T01:50:04Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > … Besides, red hair and freckles can be kind of cute. We of the Speckled-American community find this sort of sterotyping offensive. Be assured that when we take over, your name is on The List. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288/16 "2005-01-24T02:19:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How can anyone know whether the Neanderthals had freckles, or what color their hair was? You can’t know, but it was one of the speculations that came up. I’ve heard it before, and it is possible. Or, they could have all been dark haired and swarthy (pirates anyone?). ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288/17 "2005-01-24T03:53:07Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > Where the hell did this “Neandertals had red hair and freckles” meme come from, anyway? > > Anyway, looking on actual fact, there are vast differences in bone structure, notably in the skull, around the eyes and jaw, as well as brain size. As I said, there no shred of evidence of any of these traits being found among their contemporaries, or evidence that interbreeding was even possible (given that Neandertal are expected to have longer periods of pregnancy etc)… there are probably a number of things that don’t fit, and **absolutely nothing** aside from proximity that does fit. I find myself rather puzzled at the whole neanderthal redhead thing…please correct me if I am wrong, but wasnt the neanderthal bony structure more robust that cromagnon? I do know the skull in the neanderthal is heavier and shaped mildly different from cromagnon…but whenI look at the stereotypical ‘true redhead’ I frequently see very gracile features - long slender faces, delicate bone structure, more ‘elfin’ if you want. I see the reconstructed neanderthals as more like [Ron Perlman](http://imdb.com/name/nm0000579/) or [Vin Diesel](http://imdb.com/name/nm0004874/) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288/18 "2005-01-24T04:11:35Z")
> [@Demorian](#): > > Probalem #1 of this idea is that there is no archaeological evidence supporting interbreeding. No skeletal remains have been found that suggest a Neandetal crossbreeding. Of course, that doesn’t rule it out, but it restricts it to hypothesis. Actually there is more archaelogical evidence than genetic evidence (evidence, not proof) for hybrids. [Link](http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/Neanderthal.html) I read the New Scientist article, and IIRC, there was mention that this data might suggest Erectus/Sapiens hybrids, not Neaderthal/Sapiens. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2005, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288/19 "2005-01-24T04:21:53Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > On the other hand Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals did coexists in Europe for many thousands of years and there were some very interesting finds of possible hybrid bones in Portugal a few years back… See the link in my pervious post. > [@](#): > > …some speculate red hair and freckles are Neanderthal traits… You are probably thinking of ideas postulated in the novel [Dance of the Tiger](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0520202775/qid=1106540699/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/002-3612279-5420826?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). Speculate is the proper word as there is absolutely no actual evidence support the claim. > [@](#): > > and let’s just admit it: Homo Sapiens men will screw anything remotely human-like – so why not a Neanderthal? Screwing says nothing about the possiblility of producing viable offspring. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2005, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288/20 "2005-01-25T01:58:08Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I see the reconstructed neanderthals as more like [Vin Diesel](http://imdb.com/name/nm0004874/) And is that a bad thing? Some people think Vin is sort of a hottie. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homo-sapiens-neanderthal-hybrids/286288.md?page=2)