# Homophobes that are close to me: how should I consider them? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996 "2005-05-22T21:58:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/21 "2005-05-23T06:52:09Z")
> [@Antivenin](#): > > I wanted to know what WeRSauron thought. > > I didn’t know it was not debatable any more. I thought you might find previous discussions interesting, and I’m aware - ahving been a guest myself - that you cannot make use of the search function. Still, if it’s only WRS’s views you’re interested in, then you probably won’t be interested. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/22 "2005-05-23T06:54:46Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I don’t really see being wrong as a moral issue one way or the other. I see people who are wrong as mistaken or misinformed or perhaps even cognitively deficient or intellectually lazy, but morality would seem more based on actions than thought (I know, “en verbe, en opera, en cogitatione”, but that never made sense either). Um, nice try, Sampiro, but rather immature, if I may say. The question was: “Do you think that people who believe homosexuality is wrong are immoral?” You answered your own perversion of the question: “Do you think that people who wrongly believe homosexuality is wrong are immoral?” No place for that sort of thing in GD, as you should know. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/23 "2005-05-23T08:05:12Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophobia) > > There is some disagreement about the definition. Personally, I reject the definition that it includes more than fear. If that is what you mean, then make it clear. It is made perfectly clear by using the term “homophobia” in the sense in which it is used by about 99% of the population, rather than worrying about your pedantic insistence that we stick with some strict clinical or Latin definition. Also, if you insist on using a strict interpretation of the Latin roots, then homophobia should actually mean “fear of man/men”, not “fear of homosexuals.” Sorry, but i’ll take: a) reputable dictionaries that give the commonly understood definitions and b) common usage over your pedantic insistence on using the term only in its clinical sense. The fact is that, as generally used in the culture, homophobia has a meaning much closer to the definitions given above than to your own narrow definition. Hell, even your own link gives “Prejudice against homosexuals or LGBT people in general” as its first definition. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/24 "2005-05-23T11:33:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Can we please dispense with the mistaken belief that homophobia means only fear of homosexuals? It doesn’t, and it irritates me when people use such a narrow definition that fails completely to accord with the term’s meaning. The problem with the term homophobic being all encompassing is that it makes a free will decision sound like a medical disorder. It is insulting and dishonest to use it as anything but fear of homosexuals. ---
**Author:** ![user\_v1.05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5daacb/32.png) [@user\_v1.05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_v1.05)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/25 "2005-05-23T12:55:26Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The problem with the term homophobic being all encompassing is that it makes a free will decision sound like a medical disorder. It is insulting and dishonest to use it as anything but fear of homosexuals. Why would anybody choose to be homophobic and face constant derision by the more-enlightened? It is obviously genetic. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/26 "2005-05-23T13:44:27Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Also, if you insist on using a strict interpretation of the Latin roots, then homophobia should actually mean “fear of man/men”, not “fear of homosexuals.” Isn’t that “Homo” related to homogeneous = equal vs “hetero” = different ? ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/27 "2005-05-23T14:15:55Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The problem with the term homophobic being all encompassing is that it makes a free will decision sound like a medical disorder. It is insulting and dishonest to use it as anything but fear of homosexuals. This is what I was thinking mhendo. “Homophobia” is a poor term if it is all encompassing. How can a free will decision be a “phobia”? Someone who is claustrophobic doesn’t freely choose to be afraid of being in narrow or enclosed spaces. If someone thinks that homosexuals are sick and perverted because of their religious beliefs, does this mean they suffer from a phobia? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/28 "2005-05-23T15:05:37Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Um, nice try, Sampiro, but rather immature, if I may say. > > The question was: “Do you think that people who believe homosexuality is wrong are immoral?” > > You answered your own perversion of the question: “Do you think that people who wrongly believe homosexuality is wrong are immoral?” > > No place for that sort of thing in GD, as you should know. I answered that I don’t think being right or wrong on a social issue has a moral value, either positive or negative. (For starters, you’d have to prove the existence of moral value.) To me it’s the same as saying “which is more moral- the color orange or the sound of ocean waves?” What exactly is immature or unclear or deliberately obfuscatory about this in your opinion I don’t really know (an ignorance offset by apathy because I also don’t care- personally, I suspect some widdle Doper is just in a pissy mood because he hasn’t had his fix of hardcore-anal dolphin porn today [not that there’s anything {morally} wrong with that]). ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/29 "2005-05-23T15:12:29Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The problem with the term homophobic being all encompassing is that it makes a free will decision sound like a medical disorder. It is insulting and dishonest to use it as anything but fear of homosexuals. No it’s not. The fact is that, in common everyday usage, the term is used by a vast majority of people to refer to fear of, aversion to, and discrimination against gays. Whether or not you think it sounds like a medical disorder, the fact is that, in the ways it’s used by about 99% of the population, the term does, in fact, refer to a “free will decision.” So, whether this common usage concurs with the origical definition of the suffix “-phobic” is less important than how it is actually understood by the vast majority of people who use it. > [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Isn’t that “Homo” related to homogeneous = equal vs “hetero” = different ? You are correct, of course. The “homo” in homosexual comes originally from the Greek _-homo_, meaning same, not the Latin _homo_ meaning man. But even then, the literalism of **rfgdxm** wouldn’t work, because homophobia would simply mean “fear of same[ness?]”. To be quite honest, if we were cutting a new word from whole cloth to describe a “fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuals,” i would agree that we could probably think up a much better word than “homophobia.” But the fact is that words gain meanings from the use to which they are put every day, and outside of the clinical definition employed by psychologists, most of the population uses the term to refer to an attitude that goes well beyond fear and encompasses emotions like contempt, hatred, aversion, etc. I believe that a lot of people who nitpick about the term and insist on using only its clinical definition in common usage are actually looking to divert the discussion from the actual issue and turn it into a game of semantics rather than actually examining the pressing problem of homophobia in our society. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/30 "2005-05-23T15:59:45Z")
Could we please get back to the OP? I believe that people are responsible for the content of their minds. If someone believes in a particular idea, it really doesn’t matter to me whether they got that idea from their religion, their upbringing, their experience, their reading, their peers, the media, or anyplace else ideas are born. I also believe in free will, and that if we are capable of freely choosing a particular idea, we are also free to change that belief when new evidence comes to light. Nobody is born homophobic or antisemetic or racist or sexist, etc. These are all ideas which the individual has chosen to believe. In fact, these are all ideas which our society, as a whole, used to believe fairly consistently. It was a rare person, not that long ago, who wasn’t homophobic, antisemetic, racist and sexist. But societies can and do change, and individual can and do, as well. My relatives also were fairly homophobic. I kept my mouth shut during all the fag jokes, and even pretended to laugh along with them. I never had any intention of coming out to these people, and assumed that this state of affairs would be permanent. Some years ago, due to several different factors, the closet door pretty much collapsed under its own weight, and I realized that being closeted was simply my own internalized homophobia. There was no earth-shaking announcement, no notice in the paper or appearance on the 6:00 news. Rather, I simply started being seen with my partner, and introducing him to the family. Of course, the news spread like wildfire, but there was no drama on anyone’s part. And over time I discovered that my family turned out to be remarkably supportive. My Guy is accepted as a member of the family, just the same as anyone else’s spouse. It turns out that most of them had never really known an “out” gay person, so the two of us helped to open up their hearts and minds. Now please understand that I’m not telling you to come out to your family. That’s a decision only you can make, and it’s obviously not something you’re ready to do any time soon anyway. And it’s certainly not your obligation to “cure” their homophobia; that’s their choice and responsibility. But if these people are really “wonderful, caring, forgiving, selfless people,” please don’t automatically assume that their homophobia is necessarily something permanent. Just keep reminding yourself that good people (including yourself, as well as your family) are always open to positive change. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/31 "2005-05-23T16:06:52Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > Some don’t fear homosexuality, but merely see it as sinful and perverse. You’ve given a whole new meaning to the word “ **merely**.” If someone is simply afraid of my sexuality, why the hell should I care? It would have no more significance to me than someone who’s claustrophobic or acrophobic. It’s the “sinful and perverse” judgment that has the power to literally destroy people. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/32 "2005-05-23T17:21:04Z")
> [@](#): > > The fact is that, in common everyday usage, the term is used by a vast majority of people to refer to fear of, aversion to, and discrimination against gays. Whether or not you think it sounds like a medical disorder, the fact is that, in the ways it’s used by about 99% of the population, the term does, in fact, refer to a “free will decision.” So, whether this common usage concurs with the origical definition of the suffix “-phobic” is less important than how it is actually understood by the vast majority of people who use it. The problem there is it means “fear of, aversion to, and discrimination against gays.” What if someone is personally fearful of gays, but vigorously oppose discrimination against them in hiring, housing, etc.? Consider libertarians. They may feel personally that homosexuality is disgusting, but it is none of their damn business what other people do in bed. Libertarians suport the right of people to do lots of things that they don’t approve of. > [@](#): > > To be quite honest, if we were cutting a new word from whole cloth to describe a “fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuals,” i would agree that we could probably think up a much better word than “homophobia.” It already exists: anti-gay. And it is clear that someone who is anti-gay rights doesn’t necessarily fear them. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/33 "2005-05-23T17:24:24Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > It’s the “sinful and perverse” judgment that has the power to literally destroy people. Not everyone who thinks homosexuality is sinful wants to destroy them. Do all Christians who think homosexuality is sinful engage in gay bashings? ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/34 "2005-05-23T17:43:06Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > Not everyone who thinks homosexuality is sinful wants to destroy them. Do all Christians who think homosexuality is sinful engage in gay bashings? Tell me, what is likely to be the result of the children of these people turning out to be gay? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/35 "2005-05-23T17:51:01Z")
Mhendo What’s wrong with heterosexuals having an aversion (“fixed, intense dislike; repugnance… avoidance of a thing, situation, or behavior because it has been associated with an unpleasant or painful stimulus” — _American Heritage_) to homosexuality? I mean, isn’t that normal? I would expect homosexuals to have an aversion to heterosexuality; otherwise, they would be heterosexual (or at least bi-sexual). You’ve made homophobic mean, basically, heterosexual. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/36 "2005-05-23T18:04:26Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Tell me, what is likely to be the result of the children of these people turning out to be gay? I dunno. Anyone have any stats on this? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/37 "2005-05-23T18:06:17Z")
> [@La Llorona](#): > > it wouldn’t be at all unreasonable for a kid of Jerry Falwell’s to hate gay people–they grew up in an environment in which that was encouraged… It would certainly be unreasonable. Believing homosexual sex to be sinful does not justify hatred toward anyone. It quite possible, and common, for people to have religious or moral objections to homosexual sex but to treat homosexuals with respect and dignity. Believing it to be wrong does not equal hating homosexuals. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/38 "2005-05-23T18:06:46Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I mean, isn’t that normal? No, it isn’t. > [@](#): > > I would expect homosexuals to have an aversion to heterosexuality; otherwise, they would be heterosexual (or at least bi-sexual). You’ve made homophobic mean, basically, heterosexual. You would be wrong. I have no aversion, in theory to the idea of eating borsch. That does not mean, however, that I will go and eat some. It simply doesn’t interest me. Same story with your above example of homos having an “avertion” to hetero sex. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/39 "2005-05-23T18:06:52Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Mhendo > > What’s wrong with heterosexuals having an aversion (“fixed, intense dislike; repugnance… avoidance of a thing, situation, or behavior because it has been associated with an unpleasant or painful stimulus” — _American Heritage_) to homosexuality? I mean, isn’t that normal? I would expect homosexuals to have an aversion to heterosexuality; otherwise, they would be heterosexual (or at least bi-sexual). You’ve made homophobic mean, basically, heterosexual. It’s the difference between being averse to having homosexual sex _themselves_, versus being averse to homosexuals, or to homosexual sex among others. ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/40 "2005-05-23T18:14:53Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > What’s wrong with heterosexuals having an aversion (“fixed, intense dislike; repugnance… avoidance of a thing, situation, or behavior because it has been associated with an unpleasant or painful stimulus” — _American Heritage_) to homosexuality? I mean, isn’t that normal? I would expect homosexuals to have an aversion to heterosexuality; otherwise, they would be heterosexual (or at least bi-sexual). You’ve made homophobic mean, basically, heterosexual. Fallacy of excluded middle is what’s wrong with it. My expectation of what’s normal is not being so invested in such things as to consider them “unpleasant or painful”. Just uninteresting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996.md?page=3)