# Homophobes that are close to me: how should I consider them? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996 "2005-05-22T21:58:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/81 "2005-05-24T18:46:47Z")
> [@RickNZ](#): > > We are all individuals and we cannot be individuals if we all didnt have our own opinions. Wow, what an amazing observation. I think we’re in the presence of brilliance! > [@RickNZ](#): > > My opinion is homosexuality is disgusting, as in the same way you probably find other sexually deviant acts disgusting. Thanks for assuming that you know what i, or anyone else, think. Truth is, you don’t really seem to have a clue what i think. Personally, i don’t particularly find any “sexually deviant acts” (deviant from what, by the way?) disgusting at a general level. Sure, there are some sex acts that i’m not very keen on practicing, and that would probably gross me out if i tried them. And having sex with a man is one of the acts that i’m not interested in trying. But do you know what i do to avoid being grossed out by such acts? I don’t participate in them! See how easy it is? There is also a difference, of which you seem unaware, between finding homosexual practices disgusting, on the one hand, and finding homosexuality itself disgusting, on the other. As i said, any attempt to have sex with a guy would probably gross me out a bit. But just because i don’t like the idea of doing it doesn’t mean that i condemn people who do, or think that they are somehow inferior to me, or deserving of scorn for their consensual sexual practices. I don’t eat meat. I find meat itself to be rather gross, and after 12 years as a vegetarian i’d probably puke if someone forced me to eat a steak. But i don’t have a problem with other people eating meat. I don’t think they’re gross or disgusting, and i don’t make moral judgments about them or their place in society just because they happen to enjoy something that i find repellant. > [@RickNZ](#): > > Seems to me acceptance of homosexuality is the result of a highly successful propaganda campaign, i certainly dont see bestiality or B&D as out in the open as images on 6 oclock news of two men kissing and fondling each other. You make it hard for anyone to take you seriously when you equate homosexuality with bestiality. The question here is not the “sexaully deviant” nature of the behavior, as you so charmingly put it, but the issue of consent. Homosexual sex is sexual activity carried out between two or more consenting adults, and whatever these _consenting adults_ decide that they want to do to and with one another is their business. Who cares if it deviates from some nebulous idea of what “proper” sex is. This whole issue of consent doesn’t apply to animals at all, and it’s repugnant that you would equate the two. As for B&D, what’s the big fucking deal? Sure, it might not be that visible to you, but i assure you that there are large and thriving B&D communities in most cities, and that plenty of people undertake some sort of B&D activity in the privacy of their bedrooms, or dungeons, or whatever. Again, if the participants are all consenting adults, and you don’t have to watch or participate, why do you care? > [@RickNZ](#): > > If you wish to label me ignorant and intolerant simply because the thought of men sticking there penises into other mens anus’s makes me squeamish in an attempt to shame me into keeping my opinion to myself then you’re giving me the right to label you facist. You’re entitled to your opinion, you’re under no obligation to keep it to yourself, and you do indeed have the right to label me whatever you want. But, as you’ve already observed, others are also entitled to their opinion, and you might find that, with your attitude, some of those labels stick. By the way, i absolutely deny being a facist. I do not judge people based on the appearance of their face. Or did you mean fascist? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/82 "2005-05-24T19:39:19Z")
> [@Aangelica](#): > > In that case, feel free to condemn them for their _behavior_, rather than their _beliefs_. Belief is not equal to behavior. Granted, one is supposed to behave in accordance with their beliefs, but not everyone does - and not all behavior undertaken citing a given belief is _actually_ in accordance with said beliefs. > > . . . > > Okay first: it’s an aphorism, an expression and not indicative of my own personal belief about homosexuality. > > Regardless: but **they** think it is. I’m totally willing to leave them to think so, as I expect them to respect my belief that it is not. Reasonable minds may differ, and all that. > > And if you can think of a better way to define “sin” than referring to holy books and/or people, I’d like to hear it. “Sin” is a religious concept - attempting to define it (or attempting to define what it **isn’t** without recourse to “holy people or holy books” is ummmmm meaningless - a null set. Just because YOU don’t think it’s a sin doesn’t mean it’s not a sin under someone’s belief set. First of all, why are we not allowed to criticize people’s freely-chosen beliefs? If I believe that blacks are stupid or Jews should be exterminated or women belong in the kitchen, you have every right to criticize my beliefs, regardless of my actions. In fact, in an on-line discussion like this, I have no idea what anybody’s actions are; all I have to go by are a person’s words, which are a reflection of his beliefs. Yes, I agree that “reasonable minds may differ,” but first we might define what “reasonable” means. And what about a mind (or some of the contents of that mind) that are not reasonable? Are we not allowed to challenge beliefs that we think are unreasonable? Regarding the “sin” of homosexuality: I have every right to criticize the belief that it’s a sin, regardless of whether that belief comes from religion or anywhere else. People have to be held accountable for the things they believe, because we accept beliefs through our own free will, and beliefs have consequences. Why do we have to have a policy of “hands off” regarding people’s religious beliefs? Are you implying that religious beliefs are somehow in our DNA, and are immutable, that people are incapable of learning and evolving and changing their beliefs? Regarding the word “sin”: As an atheist, I admit that I never use the word except when I’m speaking metaphorically. Surely, there are things that are “wrong” or “bad” or “evil,” so when I say homosexuality is not a sin, what I mean is that there’s nothing ethically wrong with it. In fact, consensual adult sexuality doesn’t have anything to do with ethics at all, subjective religious opinions notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![RickNZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@RickNZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickNZ)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/83 "2005-05-24T20:18:15Z")
So… You wouldnt have a problem with seeing people shit on other peoples faces during a 7pm add break? Why arent the followers of this sexual method getting there air time/place in the limelight? The whole anti-homophobic movement is an agressive attack on peoples personnal opinions. Several people here have shown extreme intolarance to the fact i dont like the thought of what sexually deviant acts. Im not talking about prosecuting those that carry out such acts, im just asking people to understand its ok to find poo pushing disgusting without fear of insult. If some of your close friends and family have issues with homosexuality, live with it and respect there right to there own opinions. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/84 "2005-05-24T20:34:08Z")
> [@RickNZ](#): > > So… You wouldnt have a problem with seeing people shit on other peoples faces during a 7pm add break? Why arent the followers of this sexual method getting there air time/place in the limelight? Hey, i’m sorry if your own fetish isn’t getting enough airtime, but i don’t set the TV schedule. Seriously, i’m not interested in seeing sex of any kind during a 7pm ad break. Please point me to the non-cable, free-to-air television station that shows homosexual sex at 7 in the evening, if one does indeed exist. Or are you complainbing about a non-existent problem? > [@RickNZ](#): > > The whole anti-homophobic movement is an agressive attack on peoples personnal opinions. Several people here have shown extreme intolarance to the fact i dont like the thought of what sexually deviant acts. Yeah, how dare they be intolerant of your intolerance? > [@RickNZ](#): > > Im not talking about prosecuting those that carry out such acts, im just asking people to understand its ok to find poo pushing disgusting without fear of insult. If some of your close friends and family have issues with homosexuality, live with it and respect there right to there own opinions. You are free to find it disgusting, but when you voice your disgust and use sophomoric terms like “poo pushing,” you should expect that some people might take exception, and use their own freedom of speech to tell you what they think of you. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/85 "2005-05-24T20:41:09Z")
> [@RickNZ](#): > > . . . peoples personnal opinions . . . i dont like the thought of what sexually deviant acts . . . Im not talking about prosecuting those that carry out such acts, im just asking people to understand its ok . . . respect there right to there own opinions. Do you think there’s any link between homophobia and a complete lack of ability to spell and punctuate? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/86 "2005-05-24T20:55:02Z")
> [@RickNZ](#): > > So… You wouldnt have a problem with seeing people shit on other peoples faces during a 7pm add break? If gay sex is being shown on the 7 pm ad break at your home, _please_ give me the name and number of your cable company. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/87 "2005-05-24T20:59:24Z")
> [@RickNZ](#): > > The whole anti-homophobic movement is an agressive attack on peoples personnal opinions. No, the “anti-homophobic” movement is an aggressive attack on opinions that bely ignorance, closed-mindedness, bigotry, intolerance, irrationality, hatred and just plain stupidity. Same goes for the anti-racist movement, the anti-sexist movement, the anti-antisemitism movement, the anti-spouse-and-child-abuse movement and quite a few other "anti-"movements whose mission is to **fight ignorance.** That’s exactly why we’re here. And if you equate someone’s sexuality with people shitting on each other’s faces, maybe you’re saying a lot more about yourself than about me. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/88 "2005-05-24T21:00:04Z")
**panache45** , thank you for the eloquent defense. Now, really do not understand what is all this talk about taking a dump on people’s faces, and equal rights. Last time I looked, heterosexual have the right to marry, and last time I looked, taking a crap on the face of another person was a heterosexual act, as often seen between a german man, and an american women. (That was an semi-early South Park reference, by the way.) :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/89 "2005-05-24T21:00:57Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Do you think there’s any link between homophobia and a complete lack of ability to spell and punctuate? Colon issues. ---
**Author:** ![pessimisticgrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@pessimisticgrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pessimisticgrace)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/90 "2005-05-24T23:43:07Z")
\<\\> Then you wouldn’t mind if we banned all public displays of affection on television, right? Heterosexual or homosexual? Lets just ban all kissing, sex and hugging! “Deviant” is an amazingly subjective word. Every behavior imaginable is ‘deviant’ to somebody. What gives you the right to judge something to fit a concept that the entire world cannot possibly agree on? ---
**Author:** ![WeRSauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f19dbf/32.png) [@WeRSauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WeRSauron)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/91 "2005-05-25T01:18:26Z")
Interesting. On the one hand, **panache45** and others of his opinion have a valid point. I certainly see the point and am supportive of it. On the other hand, such a perspective is unfair and impractical. I think it is a bit too much to expect, let alone demand, that others see this issue the way we do. This is not solely a matter of personally-formed opinions but part of a larger, more complex picture. There are three reasons I have heard why homosexuality should be regarded as unnatural and, thus, wrong. One is religious (“religion says homosexuality is a sin”), another concerns an understanding of the world and how it is structured (“according to natural laws, homosexuality is unnatural”), and the last is social (homosexuality threatens the formation of families and natural and religiously-acceptable sex, and so homosexuality is a threat to society"). Often, these are linked. An example is Muslim arguments: God has declared homosexuality to be a sin because it is unnatural and a threat to society. Conservative interpretations of nearly every religion (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism) unanimously assert that homosexuality is wrong and unnatural. It is true that the concept of homosexuality is new. What the above perspectives and religious interpretations concern themselves with is sexual activity. According to the conservative/traditionalist perspective, only a man and woman who are married to each may have sex, and only with each other. Whom a man or woman may marry is also controlled. Outside of this, sex is considered to be wrong - leading to harm of society - or unnatural - if it strays from heterosexual sexual activity. Although in reality bestiality, homosexuality, incest, and the like cannot be compared one with the others, in the above perspective they are all lumped together under the category of “unnatural sexual preference or activity.” The word “preference” is deliberate: the above perspective also holds - for some reason I have not yet been able to determine - that one’s sexual preference and most certainly one’s sexual activity is one’s choice. Unnatural sexual preference is also lumped under the category of wrong sex (which includes premarital sex and extra-marital sex). The point of all this is that this perspective has been around for thousands of years and has been codified in what before the modern age were unquestioned sources of authority. We live in a world that is becoming increasingly secular, but this is not the way the world has always been. The majority of the world - most especially in most Muslim countries - believes in forming their social values, morals, and laws from the traditional authorities and oppose any attempt to replace them by any other source. Now, to put the major point bluntly, it is quite impossible to expect these people to change. If people live in an environment where open enquiry and exposure to different perspectives occurs on a regular basis, then such change is surely possible - if the people will open up to this discovery. All too often, people are sure of what they know and believe and see no reason to revise their opinions. I cannot and do not blame those close to me for their opinions and beliefs. This is the way they have been raised. This is what their society and religion tells them. This is what they see as reasonable, reasoned, and true. I cannot and do not expect them to throw away such strongly enforced opinions and beliefs. It would be stupid of me to do so. Now, some may. But those some would be in a minority, if not for any fact that our South Asian society - influenced as it is by religion and, thereby, by conservative values and morals - does not openly permit such flexibility. It is a very conservative society: it is very concerned with preserving the traditional social fabric. It cannot be reasoned with: the society’s reasoning is in its own way solid and unassailable. Even moderate relatives have turned out to be vehemently anti-homosexuality. Another aspect has to deal with the communitarian nature of our society. If I come out or if I try to reason with people for tolerance or acceptance for homosexuals, members of our society will not only execrate me but, which hurts even more, they will execrate my family. We are never considered as an individual or alone: we are always considered and spoken of with our family. What evil I may do will bring dishonor and ruin upon my family; what good I may do will bring honor and respect and praise to my family. My family have done nothing to deserve dishonor or ruin, and I will be held directly responsible for doing anything that would bring them upon my family. But, and this is where I have wiggle room, the society deals primarily with open manifestations or demonstrations of rebellion, as it were. If I were to keep things discrete and quiet and not make a big deal, pretending to be straight, then I will be fine. This has heretofore dealt with opinions and beliefs. Acts are a different matter altogether. With a few exceptions, I do not think there is any justification for violence against a person because of his/her homosexuality. The exceptions have to do with places where the shari’ah is in force, but that is another matter altogether. Even then, the legal authorities are supposed to handle the issue, not mobs or people. I try to be open-minded. I often dismiss opposing viewpoints as one’s right to be wrong. I say this to myself with tongue in cheek but there’s a serious side to this: I am not one to declare who is and is not right or wrong. How do I know they are right? How do I know I am right? My reasoning is solid. But so is theirs. My opinion cannot be changed, but neither can theirs be. It is very, very difficult for both sides to understand each other. There are a very few people who can understand both perspectives. Anyone who sees both sides comes to an understanding that this is a very difficult issue to resolve. Which side is wrong? Which side is right? In the end, I cannot and do not blame others for the opinions they hold. There are often circumstances outside of their control because of which they have their opinions. Would I be so tolerant and accepting of homosexuality if I were not gay? Would another be more tolerant if he or she were gay? Everyone has the right to express their opinion, whether right or wrong. Judging others , however, is something we, ideally, should not rush to do. it happens all too often, and people have the right to do it. But I fear rushing to judge people will do nothing but increase animosity and misunderstanding on both sides. I wish my gay brothers and sisters would be more understanding of their opponents’ perspectives, and I wish my conservative brothers and sister to be more understanding of their opponents’ perspectives. With greater understanding and appreciation, perhaps something positive can come, but otherwise we are doomed to be vehemently pitted one against the other. WRS - rant done. For now. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/92 "2005-05-25T02:43:00Z")
> [@RickNZ](#): > > So… You wouldnt have a problem with seeing people shit on other peoples faces during a 7pm add break? Why arent the followers of this sexual method getting there air time/place in the limelight? > > The whole anti-homophobic movement is an agressive attack on peoples personnal opinions. Several people here have shown extreme intolarance to the fact i dont like the thought of what sexually deviant acts. > > Im not talking about prosecuting those that carry out such acts, im just asking people to understand its ok to find poo pushing disgusting without fear of insult. If some of your close friends and family have issues with homosexuality, live with it and respect there right to there own opinions. No, not quite. Look, we don’t show straight couples going at it in reverse cowgirl at prime time, right? So why on EARTH would you think that treating gays as human, not deviants, would require showing people having sex all over the place? What people do in their BEDROOMS is their own business. But for godsakes, two men holding hands is the same as a man and a woman holding hands! As for your disgust-what does that have to do with anything? When you meet a straight couple, do you automatically start picturing them going at it? ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/93 "2005-05-25T15:30:51Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > straight couples going at it in reverse cowgirl Now, that I’ll have to Google from a non work computer 😉 I haven’t had to deal with anything as severe as **WeRSaurons** situation, but I have had to try and change the views of my parents before. The thing that works most is slow gentle steady prodding. Gently pointing out where their views are inconsistant or mean spirited, soft guiding over a long period of time seems best. Many years ago my parents would have been upset if I weant out with a non-white girl, these days they would be all for it 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Aangelica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Aangelica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aangelica)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2005, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/94 "2005-05-25T16:47:17Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > First of all, why are we not allowed to criticize people’s freely-chosen beliefs? If I believe that blacks are stupid or Jews should be exterminated or women belong in the kitchen, you have every right to criticize my beliefs, regardless of my actions. In fact, in an on-line discussion like this, I have no idea what anybody’s actions are; all I have to go by are a person’s words, which are a reflection of his beliefs. Feel free to criticize someone’s behavior. Their beliefs you can debate, but respectfully if you please. There is nothing inherently wrong in having personal beliefs. There can be things inherently wrong in how one acts on those beliefs. I think people who believe that the earth is flat are sad, tragically misguided suckers, but I’m not going to criticize them for it if they behave in a fashion I find no ethical fault with. I’ll cheerfully debate with them about their beliefs and attempt to sway them over to my way of thinking, but I won’t criticize them for having beliefs I do not personally espouse. > [@panache45](#): > > Regarding the “sin” of homosexuality: I have every right to criticize the belief that it’s a sin, regardless of whether that belief comes from religion or anywhere else. People have to be held accountable for the things they believe, because we accept beliefs through our own free will, and beliefs have consequences. Why do we have to have a policy of “hands off” regarding people’s religious beliefs? Are you implying that religious beliefs are somehow in our DNA, and are immutable, that people are incapable of learning and evolving and changing their beliefs? > > Regarding the word “sin”: As an atheist, I admit that I never use the word except when I’m speaking metaphorically. Surely, there are things that are “wrong” or “bad” or “evil,” so when I say homosexuality is not a sin, what I mean is that there’s nothing ethically wrong with it. In fact, consensual adult sexuality doesn’t have anything to do with ethics at all, subjective religious opinions notwithstanding. You misunderstand - or I wasn’t clear. Be my guest debating whether or not being homosexual a bad or wrong or evil thing in and of itself. I don’t even disagree with you on that point. My issue was with your decision to say “It doesn’t matter what all the religious sources say! This isn’t a \!” That’s just illogical. Feel free to challenge people’s beliefs all you want - but to blandly announce that your personal opinion is a more-reputable source of defining whether or not an action will violate the precepts of a faith than the books and writings and teachings upon which the faith is based is ludicrous. A sin = something that violates the precept of a faith. If you want to debate whether or not homosexual behavior (or homosexuality in and of itself) are ethically or morally correct, that’s one thing, but what you SAID was it’s not a sin. Recall your argument about all you have to go on in an online forum is another’s words? If you’re going to criticize whether or not something is a “sin” then you have to do it from a religious context - otherwise you’re participating in the spread of ignorance. Religious beliefs aren’t a hands off subject - but the question of whether something is a sin and whether or not something is morally or ethically an ill act are not always the same. Religious beliefs change with time and understanding - they shift and grow. To suggest I believe otherwise is a nice, friendly strawman, but I won’t be sorry to see it go. And, if you’re setting out to debate the moral rectitude of another person’s well-thought-out and deeply held moral code and compass, that’s the kind of thing a considerate and thoughtful person does with care and compassion - not with blazing I’m-right-therefore-you’re-wrong rhetoric. To have meaningful debate, you must listen to what the other side has to say - weight it for its value. The other side does _have_ value. People who don’t agree with you can have a point, you know. Neither of which is germaine to the OP. My contention is that the belief that homosexuality is a sin does not make the OP’s parents bad people in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2005, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996/95 "2005-06-10T19:22:47Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Could we please get back to the OP? > > I believe that people are responsible for the content of their minds. If someone believes in a particular idea, it really doesn’t matter to me whether they got that idea from their religion, their upbringing, their experience, their reading, their peers, the media, or anyplace else ideas are born. I also believe in free will, and that if we are capable of freely choosing a particular idea, we are also free to change that belief when new evidence comes to light. > > Nobody is born homophobic or antisemetic or racist or sexist, etc. These are all ideas which the individual has chosen to believe. In fact, these are all ideas which our society, as a whole, used to believe fairly consistently. It was a rare person, not that long ago, who wasn’t homophobic, antisemetic, racist and sexist. But societies can and do change, and individual can and do, as well. > > My relatives also were fairly homophobic. I kept my mouth shut during all the fag jokes, and even pretended to laugh along with them. I never had any intention of coming out to these people, and assumed that this state of affairs would be permanent. > > Some years ago, due to several different factors, the closet door pretty much collapsed under its own weight, and I realized that being closeted was simply my own internalized homophobia. There was no earth-shaking announcement, no notice in the paper or appearance on the 6:00 news. Rather, I simply started being seen with my partner, and introducing him to the family. Of course, the news spread like wildfire, but there was no drama on anyone’s part. And over time I discovered that my family turned out to be remarkably supportive. My Guy is accepted as a member of the family, just the same as anyone else’s spouse. It turns out that most of them had never really known an “out” gay person, so the two of us helped to open up their hearts and minds. > > Now please understand that I’m not telling you to come out to your family. That’s a decision only you can make, and it’s obviously not something you’re ready to do any time soon anyway. And it’s certainly not your obligation to “cure” their homophobia; that’s their choice and responsibility. But if these people are really “wonderful, caring, forgiving, selfless people,” please don’t automatically assume that their homophobia is necessarily something permanent. Just keep reminding yourself that good people (including yourself, as well as your family) are always open to positive change. This is right on the money. Couldn’t have said it better myself! A childhood friend finally came out to me not long after I’d pretty much figured out his secret, despite my then-defective gaydar. We’re as close friends as ever. However, a mutual friend of ours (call him Fred) shunned him when Fred also figured out his secret, largely due to Fred’s conservative upbringing and the influence of Fred’s even more conservative fiancee (now his wife). You won’t know how those who love and respect you will react to the fact that you’re gay until you actually come out to them… but when that happens is (or should be) entirely your decision. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobes-that-are-close-to-me-how-should-i-consider-them/304996.md?page=4)