# "Homophobia" highjacks **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251 "2003-10-29T16:19:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251/81 "2003-10-30T02:02:52Z")
**Rhum Runner** , it would depend on why they feel that way. I should think that would be obvious, and I grow tired of deflating arguments (the sort of which you have offered several in this thread) that are based on categorical applications of inappropriate proxies for a decisional rule I’ve offered, instead of the actual rule itself. I believe that constitutes arguing down a strawman, but I think you’d know whether that’s what you are doing, or not. **Bone** , I categorically disagree with you. If you hold categorically negative emotions toward homosexuality, you are a homophobe. ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251/82 "2003-10-30T02:11:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\ ***Rhum Runner** , it would depend on why they feel that way. I should think that would be obvious, > **Bone** , If you hold categorically negative emotions toward homosexuality, you are a homophobe. \*\* I’m sorry, Kelly, I’ve read many or your posts in this regard. But it is not often that you seem to contradict yourself in the same post. I don’t mean any disrespect, but I would like to understand. Do negative emotions toward homosexuality make you a homophobe, or does it depend on why you feel that way? If it is both, can you explain how both of these things can be true at the same time and in the same sense? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251/83 "2003-10-30T02:25:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*TIRED of the “tolerance” strawman. I do not have to be tolerant of intolerance. \*\* Funny. I’m finding you to be quite intolerant of other people’s ideas and opinions in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251/84 "2003-10-30T02:33:39Z")
LOOK! Just tell him you know exactly what he means or he’ll start another thread! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251/85 "2003-10-30T02:41:04Z")
**pervert** , can you not distinguish between “negative emotions toward homosexuality” and “negative emotions toward something commonly thought to be associated with homosexuality”? If you want your child not to be gay because you want your child not to suffer the pain of dealing with homophobes in their lives, then that’s not homophobia because you are actually reacting to negative emotions toward homophobes. If you want your child not to be gay because you want to have grandchildren and you suspect that a gay child is less likely to yield issue, that too is not homophobia because you’re reacting to the potential hope for progeny. Look at the root cause, not the superficial statement. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251/86 "2003-10-30T02:52:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*LOOK! > Just tell him you know exactly what he means or he’ll start another thread! > > 😉 \*\* Now _ **THAT** _ is funny! ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251/87 "2003-10-30T02:55:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*TIRED of the “tolerance” strawman. I do not have to be tolerant of intolerance. \*\* There’s a difference between tolerance and acceptance though that’s a topic for another thread. Marc ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251/88 "2003-10-30T05:00:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > **pervert, can you not distinguish between “negative emotions toward homosexuality” and “negative emotions toward something commonly thought to be associated with homosexuality”?** Yes. This makes much more sense. Thank you. I’m sorry if you worded it this way and I missed it. This and the other couple threads have become difficult to follow. > [@](#): > > \*\* > If you want your child not to be gay because you want to have grandchildren and you suspect that a gay child is less likely to yield issue, that too is not homophobia because you’re reacting to the potential hope for progeny.\*\* I’m not as concerned about this one. I tend to think of progeny in more intellectual or knowledge terms rather than purely biological or genetic terms. That is, I think it is more important that my children pass on what they have learned. As opposed to passing on their genes. This can readily be achieved by adoption. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251/89 "2003-10-30T08:39:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*Mangetout, if you honestly thought I was suggesting such a ridiculous thing, you’d be right to refuse to debate the subject with me. > > So which is it? Or are you just playing devil’s advocate; muddying the waters for the sake of clarity? \*\* What I was trying to do was understand your position a little more clearly in order to determine whether I have a ‘side’ in this debate; I’m rather disappointed that you chose to respond in this manner. ---
**Author:** ![Soup\_du\_jour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Soup\_du\_jour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup_du_jour)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251/90 "2003-10-30T09:16:27Z")
It is possible for a person (perhaps lactose intolerant) to be repulsed by the very idea of drinking milk, yet still think that drinking milk is not immoral or even icky for the general population. Can the same be said for people’s views of homosexuality? And if so, does that make the person a homophobe? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251/91 "2003-10-30T12:17:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bone \* > **Are you asserting that it’s not a choice, Meatros, as Lissener is?** I don’t think I was asserting it, but since you asked-yes, I can’t see how it’s a choice. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bone \* > **Your link even says that, “_The differences are similar to those seen in some homosexual humans, but probably only go a small way to explaining the causes of different sexual preferences_” and “_We are not trying to explain human sexuality by this study_”. I fail to see how you or Lissener can draw the ‘It’s not a choice conclusion’.** Yes, sheep and humans are different and they weren’t attempting to explain human sexuality-how does this get around the fact that there are homosexual sheep? I fail to see your point here: My point is, if it was a ‘choice’, why would their be homosexual animals? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bone \* > **Lissener is calling anyone who does not agree with him, that homosexuality is not a choice, dishonest (a strong claim) He is saying that the comparison to other behaviors that may be considered undesirable is not valid, because such behaviors are choices, and homosexuality is not. I’m calling him on this point. Care to back that up?** He has a point about homosexuality not being a choice and equating sexuality with ‘hair color’ or ‘skin color’. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bone \* > \*\*You can have negative emotions towards homosexuality, treat homosexual relationships different than heterosexual ones (in the sense of whom you desire your children to marry), and still not be a homophobe. At least by my definition. \*\* Perhaps not ‘homophobic’, but discriminatory/bigoted might be a more apt term. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251/92 "2003-10-30T12:21:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Soup\_du\_jour \* > \*\*It is possible for a person (perhaps lactose intolerant) to be repulsed by the very idea of drinking milk, yet still think that drinking milk is not immoral or even icky for the general population. > > Can the same be said for people’s views of homosexuality? And if so, does that make the person a homophobe? \*\* I would say that this wouldn’t make the person a ‘homophobe’, I mean there are heterosexual couples that repulse me, at the idea of their mating. The problem is when you start treating people differently over something they have no control over (something that doesn’t hurt anyone). ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251/93 "2003-10-30T12:56:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cheesesteak \* > \*\*Kelly, it just feels like a dilution of the term. A term that should mean something is broadened to include so many people that it loses its steam. Terms like racism have undergone this change too. It used to mean a person who thought blacks were lesser human beings, really ugly thoughts. Now, if a black football player doesn’t get to play because he screwed up (see Maurice Clarett) you hear charges of racism. \*\* And everybody who didn’t buy Michael Jackson’s latest album is a racist–just ask him. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251/94 "2003-10-30T12:58:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > I would say that this wouldn’t make the person a ‘homophobe’, I mean there are heterosexual couples that repulse me, at the idea of their mating. So you admit to being “bigoted” by your own standards… ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251/95 "2003-10-30T13:11:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*So you admit to being “bigoted” by your own standards… \*\* How so? Perhaps I should clarify: I’m not repulsed by homosexuals, nor for that matter heterosexuals- although thinking about certain groups of either mating isn’t exactly appealing. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251/96 "2003-10-30T13:18:56Z")
Calling people who didn’t like Jackson’s latest album a racist is like calling people who didn’t like “Ellen” a homophobe. Michael Jackson is a nutcase, and using his seriously confused worldviews to support your argument is not exactly a fruitful effort. ---
**Author:** ![modro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@modro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/modro)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251/97 "2003-10-30T13:27:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > \*\ ***Cheesesteak** , I don’t feel that it’s a dilution at all. Intolerance is intolerance, and I will not excuse “mildly intolerant behavior” by refraining from calling it intolerant. > > It’s kinda like lead in the drinking water: you want to get rid of all of it, or at least as much as you can, and you go after small polluters just the same as big ones, when it’s cost-effective to do so. Besides, a lot of the “small polluters” in this situation are people who will stop once they realize that they’re hurting someone, and sometimes the label is enough to shock some sense into them. > > I won’t call everyone I meet a homophobe. I will call everyone I meet who exhibits bigotry on the basis of sexual preference one, though, regardless as to the “severity” of that bigotry. This will make some people uncomfortable. This is the point. \*\* The only problem I see with this mentality, is that ridding everyone of every last bit of intolerance is at best improbable, and at worst impossible. There is always going to be that certain ick factor when you are dealing with a group of people who’s sexual activities most people will find distasteful. For instance, if I see a straight couple making out in public, I am going to be made uncomfortable, and think that they should go get a room or something because I don’t want to see it. Doesn’t make me heterophobic, just makes me not want to see into other people’s bedrooms. People automatically have negative reactions to that which they think gross. You can’t change that. No amount of homophobe witch hunting is going to keep the average straight person from suddering at the thought of two men giving each other a rim job. My problem with your definition of homophobia, is that I believe the brush you are painting with is far too wide. Some of my closest straight friends for instance, wouldn’t want to see me having sex with another guy. By the same token, I wouldn’t want to see them having sex with their partners either. My classification of homophobia has always been a little more moderate, taking into consideration that, to the average person, gay sex is nasty. No getting around that, people tend to find what they don’t participate in themselves gross, it isn’t just limited to gay sex. I’ve always classified homophobe as: someone who treats me dfferent, just based on my sexuality. someone who will attempt to restrict my rights as a human, based on who I sleep with. and someone who will actively try to convert me. Where I differ in my definition, is the whole “thought police” aspect. You may not like it, but people like to make a big deal about the sexual exploits of others. Look at Bill Clinton, he get’s a blowjob, from a woman no less, and it is front page news for months. If the only reaction that a person has when thinking about me having sex with another guy is “Eww, gross. Next topic.” then hey, I’m a happy camper. Fighting intolerance with intolerance is, IMO, just a really good way of creating even more extreme responses on both sides. The goal is admirable, but the methods are, in my opinion, a bit misguided. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251/98 "2003-10-30T13:34:16Z")
UnoMondo said, "What makes you so certain? Who are you to decide the religious doctrine of others? " Who’s deciding doctrine? All I’m doing is saying the doctrine that many people believe in is hateful. It is your perogative to believe whatever doctrine you choose to. But that doesn’t change the fact that it is promoting hate. And it doesn’t change the fact that you will be associated with that hate. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251/99 "2003-10-30T14:53:50Z")
I for one never understood why straight men disapprove of gay men, but tend to tolerate (not to mention watch porn involving) lesbians. As a straight man myself, living in a big and relatively gay-positive city, I have always blessed the fact that so many otherwise good-looking, intelligent men are gay. Naturally, they are interested in each other and not in women - how many women have said to me, “all the best ones turn out to be gay?” (of course, they always add “present company excepted!”😉 ) . All the less competition for me. 😃 So I have never understood the rationality behind (male) homophobia. As far as I am concerned, homosexuality is a positive good that ought to be encouraged. At least, among men. It can only benefit us. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251/100 "2003-10-30T15:00:21Z")
**Malthus** Speaking from my experience growing up, when your father browbeats you with Leviticus 18:22 for 18 years, it can take a while to grow out of that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-highjacks/210251.md?page=6)