# Homophobia on the Dope **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [April 29, 2020, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855 "2020-04-29T22:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/41 "2020-04-30T16:25:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The same thing that is wrong with encountering racism and/or sexism, saying nothing and just walking away. Assuming you found racism and sexism to be wrong in the first place, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/42 "2020-04-30T16:26:35Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > An actual gay man (Miller? panache?), or especially one who lived in a much more actively homophobic time or environment may have a different perspective though, and I’d value their input more than my own. I didn’t personally find anything in that thread remotely offensive. Gay bars named after bad sex puns are an established tradition, and most of the really risque names in that thread were from actual gay bars. “The Back Door” may be an “inane suggestion,” but if you Google back door gay bar, you get a full pages of links to actual establishments. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/43 "2020-04-30T16:34:32Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > Serious question - it it relevant to your perception of that post that it purported to be in reference to an actual bar with an actual gay clientele, rather than a hypothesized humorous name? Answering for myself, not for **MrDibble** - I think it’s a relevant distinction. A thread like “what amusing gay bar names have you come across” would be fine, because self-referential humor is completely different than “humor” targeted at you by someone else. This is especially true when the targeted group is a minority or historically persecuted group. Gays naming or frequenting a bar with a double-entendre name is about taking control of a stereotype to make fun of it and thereby reduce its power. Straight people coming up with joke names is just perpetuating that stereotype and reducing gay men to a single defining trait. The words might be the same, but who is making the joke really does matter. I think the majority of posts in that thread were fine. But the specific thread subject opened the door for not-OK posts, and some of those slipped in too. ---
**Author:** ![Kovitlac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kovitlac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kovitlac)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/44 "2020-04-30T16:41:22Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I didn’t personally find anything in that thread remotely offensive. Gay bars named after bad sex puns are an established tradition, and most of the really risque names in that thread were from actual gay bars. “The Back Door” may be an “inane suggestion,” but if you Google back door gay bar, you get a full pages of links to actual establishments. Yeah but you’re not allowed to actually find those names funny unless you’re gay :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/45 "2020-04-30T18:19:52Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > 1. Is there such a thing as a “gay bar”? > 2. What would motivate a clientele to go there? > **[Daily Hive | Torontoist](https://dailyhive.com/page/torontoist)** > > The Torontoist was sold to Daily Hive > **[Parkside Tavern Archives - Then and Now: Toronto Nightlife History](http://thenandnowtoronto.com/tag/parkside-tavern/)** > **[Then & Now: Empire Dancebar - Then and Now: Toronto Nightlife History](http://thenandnowtoronto.com/2014/12/then-now-empire-dancebar/#more-1364)** > > The Empire crew is decked out and ready to dig Psychedelic Wednesdays. Photo courtesy of Michelle Fabry.   Article… [http://thenandnowtoronto.com/2014/10/then-now-stages/](http://thenandnowtoronto.com/2014/10/then-now-stages/) Yes, there are bars of all types, including gay bars that provide safe spaces to celebrate, to party, to dance and to meet one another. Bars, including gay bars, are places where people congregate, imbibe in alcohol, interact with other people through conversations and recreational activities e.g. darts, listening to bands and dancing), and develop friendships, relationships and communities, including political communities such a gay rights communities. In Toronto, the gay community that frequented bars such as the St. Charles Tavern and the Parkside Tavern were, along with the somewhat overlapping University of Toronto gay community, key in changing Canada from a country in which gays were jailed, reviled, beaten and murdered to a country in which gays have equal rights and freedoms, are socially [del]accepted[/del] welcomed by everyone other than bigots, and are a very important part of who we are as a society. \*\*\*Freedom, love, expression, understanding. \*\*\*Those are key to Toronto Pride, where for ten days in 2014 World Pride was held – 2 million visitors, $719,000,000 economic impact, and a 12,000 person parade with 280 floats and 100,000 spectators lining the streets. So yes, gay bars exist, and in many cultures they exist to the degree that extended gay communities form, become socially acceptable, change practices and laws for the better, lift societies up by the bootstraps until bigots no longer rule the roost, and remind us of who we are as individuals and who we want to be as a society. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/46 "2020-04-30T18:37:55Z")
> [@Kovitlac](#): > > Yeah but you’re not allowed to actually find those names funny unless you’re gay :rolleyes: If people express that they’re hurtful and why, shouldn’t you take a beat to think about it? ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/47 "2020-04-30T18:43:40Z")
> [@TubaDiva](#): > > We’re discussing this. More later. > > Jenny > your humble TubaDiva > Administrator I read your post (as a poster, not as a moderator) in that thread posted after this one. “…there is perhaps a little more sniggering than is appropriate.” Here is some of it. > [@Perfect Name For a Gay Bar.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-name-for-a-gay-bar/852484/8): > > Love the sinner, love the sin. > [@Perfect Name For a Gay Bar.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-name-for-a-gay-bar/852484/9): > > Innuendo. > > /thread > [@Perfect Name For a Gay Bar.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-name-for-a-gay-bar/852484/12): > > I’d have to be convinced that it wasn’t the other way around. That is, it was called the back door _because_ of the pun, using the back door of the building was their ‘official reason’ for calling it that. > I mean, if there was a gay bar called “May I push your stool in”, I don’t think anyone would believe it’s because they don’t have chairs, only stools. > [@Perfect Name For a Gay Bar.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-name-for-a-gay-bar/852484/18): > > All in all, it’s just another hole-in-the-wall. > [@Perfect Name For a Gay Bar.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-name-for-a-gay-bar/852484/22): > > Ol’ Glory Hole > [@Perfect Name For a Gay Bar.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-name-for-a-gay-bar/852484/24): > > No love for the Mail Sack or the Manhole? > [@Perfect Name For a Gay Bar.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-name-for-a-gay-bar/852484/27): > > The Velvet Spike > [@Perfect Name For a Gay Bar.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-name-for-a-gay-bar/852484/28): > > Ben Dover’s Bar and Bistro > [@Perfect Name For a Gay Bar.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-name-for-a-gay-bar/852484/29): > > How abou a gay _Irish_ bar: “The Home o’ Sexual.” > [@Perfect Name For a Gay Bar.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-name-for-a-gay-bar/852484/30): > > But not _ **A Gay Bar** _. Because that would imply there was more than one and gay people could choose which one they go to. And being gay is not a choice. > [@Perfect Name For a Gay Bar.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-name-for-a-gay-bar/852484/31): > > When I lived in Lancaster, CA back in the '80s there was a gay bar called The Back Door. The sign out front said, ‘Entry at rear’. > [@Perfect Name For a Gay Bar.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-name-for-a-gay-bar/852484/37): > > “Cups And Balls”. > [@Perfect Name For a Gay Bar.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-name-for-a-gay-bar/852484/46): > > The Homo-sippian? Gays sipping their drinks. > [@Perfect Name For a Gay Bar.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-name-for-a-gay-bar/852484/50): > > That brings to mind an even better name: > > “SMEGMA” > [@Perfect Name For a Gay Bar.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-name-for-a-gay-bar/852484/51): > > (snip)Let’s think. > Just to be a little confusing, how about _The Wondering See-Men_. I thought this was the place for good sea food but looks like some sort of pick-up joint. Should have gone to the _Rod’n and Reeling_ instead. > [@Perfect Name For a Gay Bar.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-name-for-a-gay-bar/852484/53): > > Smeg-Man > [@Perfect Name For a Gay Bar.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-name-for-a-gay-bar/852484/54): > > “Peckers.” Like Hooters, but with men in tight shorts serving food and drinks. And a woodpecker on the logo. > [@Perfect Name For a Gay Bar.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-name-for-a-gay-bar/852484/61): > > Up north in Gay, Michigan, the town bar is called > > (wait for it) > > [The Gay Bar.](https://thegaybar.com/) > > Though AFAIK it doesn’t particularly cater to homosexual clientele; it takes all comers. > [@Perfect Name For a Gay Bar.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-name-for-a-gay-bar/852484/69): > > The Head Office > [@Perfect Name For a Gay Bar.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/perfect-name-for-a-gay-bar/852484/71): > > It keep it simple and go with DICKS. > > NO apostrophe. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/48 "2020-04-30T19:02:10Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I didn’t personally find anything in that thread remotely offensive. Gay bars named after bad sex puns are an established tradition, and most of the really risque names in that thread were from actual gay bars. “The Back Door” may be an “inane suggestion,” but if you Google back door gay bar, you get a full pages of links to actual establishments. I concur. But even tho not Homophobia, many of the "jokes’ are sophomoric at best, perhaps that isnt the best thread to have on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/49 "2020-04-30T19:06:42Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Here is some of it. Manhole hole-in-the-wall (the real one is named Hole In The Wall Saloon) The Back Door Peckers The Gay Bar Dick’s All of these on your list are names of real gay bars, verified with google. Some are closed now, but all operated at some point. Velvet Spike - fictional gay bar from the movie Brothers (1984) You personally might be offended by the names, but you are going to have a hard time convincing me that the names themselves are offensive when they are the names of real establishments. This was why I did not moderate the thread. If the real names weren’t called out as such, you wouldn’t be able to tell most of the fake names from the real names, and some of the fake names suggested are in fact names of real gay bars. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/50 "2020-04-30T19:10:43Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > Manhole > hole-in-the-wall (the real one is named Hole In The Wall Saloon) > The Back Door > Peckers > The Gay Bar > Dick’s > > All of these on your list are names of real gay bars, verified with google. Some are closed now, but all operated at some point. > > Velvet Spike - fictional gay bar from the movie Brothers (1984) > > You personally might be offended by the names, but you are going to have a hard time convincing me that the names themselves are offensive when they are the names of real establishments. > > This was why I did not moderate the thread. If the real names weren’t called out as such, you wouldn’t be able to tell most of the fake names from the real names, and some of the fake names suggested are in fact names of real gay bars. 1. How many of those are still open? What used to be “cute” might be seen as crude now. 2. The suggestion was “Dicks”, not “Dick’s”-big difference. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/51 "2020-04-30T19:10:56Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > A comparison was made elsewhere as to whether you’d participate in a “What to name a Black bar” thread and I don’t agree with the comparison My personal take on it is that what to name a gay bar is more on par with what to name a cowboy bar in Texas. As long as the names aren’t intentionally insulting, I don’t see a problem with it. I am more than willing to discuss this though with anyone who has a different opinion. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/52 "2020-04-30T19:33:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. How many of those are still open? What used to be “cute” might be seen as crude now. Manhole - Chicago, currently closed, but that appears to be due to the virus. It has opened and closed several times and was open as recently as some time in 2020. Hole In The Wall Saloon - San Francisco, CA, open The Back Door - Bloomington, IN, open Peckers - Nashville, TN, open The Gay Bar - Gay, Michigan, open but named for the town (owner admits on their web site that they are having fun with the name so the gay reference is intentional). Admittedly not really a gay bar, but it is relevant to the thread. Dick’s - New York, closed several years ago Velvet Spike is from a 1984 movie, so fair point. Values were significantly different back then. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. The suggestion was “Dicks”, not “Dick’s”-big difference. While the name Dick’s can certainly be something that isn’t a reference to the male sex organ, in this case it was a gay bar in a known gay area of New York City. I have a hard time believing that the dick reference wasn’t intentional in this specific case. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/53 "2020-04-30T19:56:50Z")
/nm The thread had moved on. ---
**Author:** ![DETXL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/detxl/32/19366_2.png) [@DETXL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DETXL)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/54 "2020-04-30T19:58:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > A comparison was made elsewhere as to whether you’d participate in a “What to name a Black bar” thread and I don’t agree with the comparison - “gay bar with themed name” is a common enough thing in the real world. Because, I think, it’s not really the right comparison. If you’re talking about race, I’d suggest instead that there’s often an… let’s say _uncomfortably racial_ component to a lot of “most unusual names” discussions (not necessarily on the Straight Dope, but in general—y’know, the people who swear they went to school with Phat Ho and Oranjello and “shuh-THEED”). And while a) it’s pretty obvious that an “I just thought of a perfect name for a Black kid” thread would be at best looked at with a pretty serious side-eye here, b) I hope it’s as obvious that “yeah, but other races really _do_ give their kids weird names” isn’t a compelling affirmative defense. And I guess c) even as someone who acquired a thick skin dealing with that kind of racial stuff growing up, I’d understand if other Asian-Americans were bothered by a “funny Chinese restaurant ideas” thread even if it didn’t trouble me personally. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/55 "2020-04-30T20:04:05Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > You personally might be offended by the names, but you are going to have a hard time convincing me that the names themselves are offensive when they are the names of real establishments. Establishments run by and frequented by queer people presumably. Something far different than a bunch of straight people sniggering behind their hands at the idea of the promiscuous gay man. Though that the jokes were so dire was far more lamentable, in my opinion, than their homophobic nature. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/56 "2020-04-30T20:14:48Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > Serious question - it it relevant to your perception of that post that it purported to be in reference to an actual bar with an actual gay clientele, rather than a hypothesized humorous name? Poor choice of example on my part - I’m not talking about the post referencing an actual bar named that, I’m talking about the other posts riffing off it by suggesting non-real equivalents. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/57 "2020-04-30T20:24:24Z")
If you want a fair comparison, I’d suggest a social venue that’s specifically for people who are psychiatric survivors, former mental patients, etc, to congregate. There’s definitely a sense of dark humor that would lead to embracing names that some other folks would find disturbing: The Asylum, The Psycho Social Club, Lunatic Fringe, Manic Decompression, DSMemberment, The Decompensation, Chock Full o’ Nuts, Crazy Eights… I don’t like to embrace every “established truth” that comes down the pike about how the marginalized people get to do this and that but the privileged majority better not, but I have to agree with the general notion that we get to make fun of ourselves and it’s different when someone who isn’t us starts doing it. When we do it, we’re actually mocking the people who have seen us that way, and called us those things. And to that end, it seems to me there’s a difference between gay folks discussing cutesey names for gay bars and the general population doing the same thing. If it doesn’t bother them, that’s cool too, but if it does, it does. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/58 "2020-04-30T21:00:11Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > (snip) > You personally might be offended by the names, but you are going to have a hard time convincing me that the names themselves are offensive when they are the names of real establishments. > > This was why I did not moderate the thread. If the real names weren’t called out as such, you wouldn’t be able to tell most of the fake names from the real names, and some of the fake names suggested are in fact names of real gay bars. That wasn’t a list of names, it was a list of posts with sniggering in them. You may argue with me about some of them, that’s as may be, but I want to be clear that a) I am not offended, the lameness of the posts is not worth that much emotion, and b) if I were offended, it would not be by the names _per se_, but by the attitudes of the posters in those posts. As I said in that thread, it is giving a lot of people the opportunity to take shots without any consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/59 "2020-04-30T21:21:26Z")
I think part of the issue is that it is difficult to tell the real names from the made-up ones, so we can’t tell which ones we can snicker at and which ones are sacrosanct. They are based on the same thing, and they are riffing in the same way. Make up a jokey name, and then get offended when people laugh. That kind of defeats the purpose. How many marginalized groups does it take to change a light bulb? I think you know this one already. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2020, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/60 "2020-04-30T22:29:40Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > That wasn’t a list of names, it was a list of posts with sniggering in them. That list included my post, which contained no sniggering. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855.md?page=4)