# Homophobia on the Dope **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [April 29, 2020, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855 "2020-04-29T22:43:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2020, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/102 "2020-05-16T04:06:19Z")
☹ ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2020, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/103 "2020-05-16T05:01:02Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > And also not to say they are not going to address it, but to just hope it goes away. You know who else just hopes things go away? ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2020, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/104 "2020-05-16T15:43:28Z")
Well, they’re probably waiting for any examples of actual homophobia to show up in a thread where the vast majority of the content is talking about the names of actual establishments. The most that’s been presented as evidence is that there was “sniggering”. **Tuba Diva** addressed that in post #84 of the thread. To be honest, it’s been really quite considerate and in-depth for a discussion on the names of bars. It’s depressing that the complainants in this thread keep bumping it without presenting any evidence in the thread of said homophobia. Just because a subject makes you uncomfortable doesn’t mean that it’s automatically homophobic or hateful. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2020, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/105 "2020-05-16T16:10:29Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Well, they’re probably waiting for any examples of actual homophobia to show up in a thread where the vast majority of the content is talking about the names of actual establishments. The most that’s been presented as evidence is that there was “sniggering”. **Tuba Diva** addressed that in post #84 of the thread. > > To be honest, it’s been really quite considerate and in-depth for a discussion on the names of bars. It’s depressing that the complainants in this thread keep bumping it without presenting any evidence in the thread of said homophobia. > > Just because a subject makes you uncomfortable doesn’t mean that it’s automatically homophobic or hateful. 1. I tend to agree. 2. I’m straight though, so I’m reluctant to consider my own level of offense taken as relevant. 3. A number of self-identified gay and non-straight dopers have also said that they find this unoffensive, however. 4. It would be nice if Tuba would weigh back in either way. That is all. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2020, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/106 "2020-05-16T17:46:34Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > I guess the decision is not to address it. And also not to say they are not going to address it, but to just hope it goes away. Well, this is loaded with the assumption that there _was_ homophobia in that thread to address. I totally understand that you were offended, and why you were offended. If there were a reasonable consensus among LGBT people here I think that would be decisive. But there’s clearly not, and the standard cannot be just the lowest common denominator of subjective offense. > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Bigotry has many degrees and different faces. Beavis and Butthead sniggering has been heavily, and rightly, discouraged here when it is about women. I think this has been fairly successful, I don’t remember seeing much of that around here lately. > > Bigotry doesn’t have to be “round them up and put them in concentration camps” it can also be “I find you weird or threatening or disgusting, and I’m going to make sure everyone knows it.” Also different degrees of sanction. In the latter case, “keep it to yourself” is sufficient Again, I think you inferred this “sniggering” out of thin air. Maybe some homophobes participated in that thread, I have no idea - but I don’t see any way you could discern that from what was actually written. Objectively, that thread did nothing more than reference a cultural tradition _in the gay community_ of naming bars with corny salacious puns. It seems to me that this tradition originated as part of a reaction against the long era of persecution when people had to hide their nature. I think it’s a natural reaction against a history when it has been stigmatized as “weird or threatening or disgusting” to react against that by proudly flaunting your sexuality, principally to celebrate it, and with the desirable side effect of taunting the remaining homophobes. And there have been positive effects from these phenomena - to help bring LGBT sexual activity “out of the shadows”, to normalize it. The majority of non-bigots now understand that it’s part of the normal diversity of human behavior, and that’s a dramatic change in a couple of generations. But it has been an unfortunate side effect that this cultural phenomenon of “in-your-face sexuality” has created a stereotype of promiscuity. Of course not all gay men are extroverts who want to flaunt their sexuality or to be promiscuous or to frequent gay bars with salacious names, but it was the cultural phenomenon of extroversion that got noticed and led to the stereotype. So - yes, I totally understand why you find this stereotype offensive. But this thread was about an aspect of the underlying cultural phenomenon of flaunting sexuality - corny salacious puns for bar names - something that originated in the gay community, and part of a cultural phenomenon that I think has had strong _positive_ effects in normalizing homosexual behavior, notwithstanding the unfortunate negative consequence of the stereotype. Obviously if the intent were to perpetuate the consequent stereotype that _would be_ offensive, and that’s what your inferring with your claim that you discern “sniggering”. But objectively, that sniggering is simply not there in what was written. Celebrating and sharing in the jokes that are part of a positive underlying cultural phenomenon in some parts of the gay community is not bigotry. Having said all that, it’s a subtle enough distinction between “sharing in a cultural joke” and “sniggering” that I’ve certainly learned a lesson that (for me) participating in a thread like this is probably unwise in an online community like this where we just don’t know each other well enough to discern intent. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2020, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/107 "2020-05-16T20:16:23Z")
Again, not offended. Unpleasantly reminded of older days. There are presumably women who laugh at misogynistic jokes, Jews who laugh at anti-Semitic jokes, and so on. Who does and doesn’t laugh at a joke is not relevant to its disagreeable nature or to its intent. Yes, I discern sniggering intent in some of the posts. No-one posted “tee-hee” or nudged me with their elbow, but they might as well have. Yes, my subjective judgment. I recognize that that is probably not the sort of thread that is going to result in any change in the rules or even a note from a moderator. Far worse had been posted here about other groups, including women, before changes began to be made. Nevertheless, since the issue was raised by several people, and since TubaDiva did say that the moderators were discussing it, some conclusion should be posted. If the conclusion is something like “this doesn’t rise to the level to be moderated” then I accept that as their judgment. If a few people have learned to be a little more considerate in their posting and maybe not to perpetuate stereotypes, that is all to the good. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855/108 "2020-05-16T21:01:09Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Nevertheless, since the issue was raised by several people, and since TubaDiva did say that the moderators were discussing it, some conclusion should be posted. If the conclusion is something like “this doesn’t rise to the level to be moderated” then I accept that as their judgment. > [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > You personally might be offended by the names, but you are going to have a hard time convincing me that the names themselves are offensive when they are the names of real establishments. > > This was why I did not moderate the thread. If the real names weren’t called out as such, you wouldn’t be able to tell most of the fake names from the real names, and some of the fake names suggested are in fact names of real gay bars. **engineer\_comp\_geek** gave the results of the discussion more than two weeks ago, after **TubaDiva’s** post. That’s the conclusion. **TubaDiva** doesn’t need to come back again to state it. Given that you say you accept the conclusion, and have been the main person objecting to it, I think it’s time to close this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-on-the-dope/852855.md?page=5)