# Homophobia? Queers? Survivor? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2000, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069 "2000-08-28T17:49:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/81 "2000-08-29T19:23:07Z")
**lissener,** Once you have disposed of your various adversaries here to your satisfaction, perhaps you will be able to address my earlier question. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/82 "2000-08-29T19:26:31Z")
I may be off on this point, but I don’t think I am. Something everyone has been alluding to but not really pinning down is the level at which you are intimate with whom you may be speaking these words to. - Here I am somewhat defending Scylla, myself, and any other “breeder” who may speak the “Q” word. The argument about the family name usage makes me think of this. In case you’re not following what I’m saying (which after I read that last paragraph, you probably aren’t) allow me to cite a few examples: I would never walk up to any old stranger in the street and say, “Pardon me, but are you queer?” I think we all would agree that is offensive no matter how I “meant” the question. However, just last night I was having a conversation with a friend who is gay. We were talking about Lifetime TV, which he described as “TV for woman and queer men.” I said, “You know I don’t really like Lifetime.” He replied, and I quote, “Well, you would if you were queer.” In that example is he allowing me into his group, or is he just expressing that we are close enough where there is no offense meant or taken when either one of us may use the word “queer”? Is this strinking a chord with anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/83 "2000-08-29T19:27:51Z")
Strinking = Striking ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/84 "2000-08-29T19:29:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > > **The point is, it’s up to the referred-to group to determine how it will be addressed. You can have an opinion whether you approve of their decision in the matter, but you don’t really get a vote if you’re outside the group.** > > In light of the preceding quote, and others like it, I ask the following: > > What is your position on people who refer to Christian Fundamentalists as Fundies, or Jeezers? In view of your expressed views on these topics, one would expect a strong condemnation. But you never know. \*\* I’ve used the word Fundie in only one context. I had a boyfriend once who was a devout, self-labelled Fundamentalist, who often referred to himself and his friends as Fundies. This should tell you a couple things: he was very interesting to discuss these sorts of things with, and I’m not as closed-minded as you apparently think. I would never, except to be intentionally rude and insulting, use the word otherwise (and I’ve never heard of Jeezers). I would certainly never use the word and then act surprised if the person to whom I was referring was insulted by it. My position on people who use such labels is that they’re rude. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/85 "2000-08-29T19:32:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jack Batty \* > \*\*. . . just last night I was having a conversation with a friend who is gay. We were talking about Lifetime TV, which he described as “TV for woman and queer men.” I said, “You know I don’t really like Lifetime.” He replied, and I quote, “Well, you would if you were queer.” > > In that example is he allowing me into his group, or is he just expressing that we are close enough where there is no offense meant or taken when either one of us may use the word “queer”?\*\* The point is it’s up to you and your friend to define your friendship and your rules of address; it’s not up to 'Scylla. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/86 "2000-08-29T19:34:18Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Ptahlis** _ > > “Nigger” has always been a slur, and you don’t have large groups labelling themselves “Nigger Nation.” Blacks may use the word amongst themselves much like gays may call one another “faggot.”… But “queer” is a word that is used by the gay community to represent themselves both to each other _and_ to other people _not_ in their groups. That makes it an entirely different animal. Good distinction. > [@](#): > > It’s disingenuous to call oneself Queer Nation, to chant “We’re here! We’re Queer! Deal with it!” and then turn around and say “Don’t call us queer! That’s an insult.” Again, only if it is _intended_ as an insult, and unless I know you or know of you, I probably won’t know your intentions, and given the past history of the word, and knowing full well that not everyone has embraced the word’s newly-attributed positive aspects, yes, I’m going to assume the worst and think you’re trying to slight me. Sorry, but it’s force of habit - it happens to gay folk an awful lot in the real world. > [@](#): > > If people are willing to meet you halfway by observing your personal wish not to be called something, then you should also be willing to meet them halfway and not take offense when it is obviously not intended. Wise words. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/87 "2000-08-29T19:36:20Z")
Lissener said: "I think you’re finally beginning to get it. It’s a shock to you, I guess, to suddenly live in a world where you feel excluded; where you’re made to feel different. But I’m supposed to allow you to make me feel threatened, to feel that the overwhelming sense of separateness and exclusion I feel every day of my life is never going to change, just so you don’t have to feel the occasional moment of discomfort? Toughen up." Oh I’ve always understood, I just don’t care to cater to your need for turnabout. Sorry that life sucks for you, but I’m not going to kowtow to you because of it. goboy said: “Silly breeder” Wow, a disparagement based on my sexual orientation. What makes “silly breeder” any different? I find it insulting. Again, I prefer “Master of te Universe.” ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/88 "2000-08-29T19:36:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > **I’m not as closed-minded as you apparently think.** Actually, I’m not as judgemental as you apparently think. I too had never heard of these terms prior to joining these boards. But they’re used all over here, by many people, including some of the most “enlightened” participants in this very thread. So I was merely checking for consistency. Evidently, you are. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/89 "2000-08-29T19:41:46Z")
> [@](#): > > However, just last night I was having a conversation with a friend who is gay. We were talking about Lifetime TV, which he described as “TV for woman and queer men.” I said, “You know I don’t really like Lifetime.” He replied, and I quote, “Well, you would if you were queer.” > > In that example is he allowing me into his group, or is he just expressing that we are close enough where there is no offense meant or taken when either one of us may use the word “queer”? Well, I don’t know your friend, so I couldn’t say. Here’s my take on it: I don’t care about words, but intent. Scylla just wants to use the word to hurt gay people by getting to say, “Hey, queer!”, and then hide by saying gay people use the word, so why can’t he? That’s gutless. I don’t have the issues lissener has. Nobody ever called me queer because I played sports in school and to all appearances was as straight as could be. I’m 100% gay, yet people are always shocked when I tell them because I am completely un-gay in appearance and speech. I sympathize with him, though, because I know how being silent and hiding an important part of my life all through high school felt. Since the gay world has co-opted the word(Queer Nation, queer studies), it would be disingenuous to act as if it were an all-round insult. Some gay guys \* prefer\* to be called “queer” or “gay”. I’d prefer you just call me by my name, and not view me as a member of a group. I am not defined by my sexuality. So, if you and your friends are all cool with you using the word “queer” to refer to them, go ahead, knock yourself out. If you just want to use the word to hurt people, don’t. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/90 "2000-08-29T19:45:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > > **I’m not as closed-minded as you apparently think.** > > Actually, I’m not as judgemental as you apparently think. > > I too had never heard of these terms prior to joining these boards. But they’re used all over here, by many people, including some of the most “enlightened” participants in this very thread. > > So I was merely checking for consistency. Evidently, you are. \*\* Sorry; apparently I’m having a hard time keeping my dander down. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/91 "2000-08-29T19:47:55Z")
goboy said: “Scylla just wants to use the word to hurt gay people by getting to say, “Hey, queer!”, and then hide by saying gay people use the word, so why can’t he? That’s gutless.” So now you read minds too? Perhaps you could cite where I said that, or provide a quote where I gave that impression. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/92 "2000-08-29T19:53:27Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Scylla** _ > > I don’t use the term anymore, but now I feel uncormfortable. Any time I’m around my gay friends, they refer to themselves this way, but I am excluded. Each time I hear it I am reminded that I am only included up to a certain point. Each time I hear it I realize it is a little bit of an attack against me as a member of the non-gay community. Wouldn’t happen. If I said I were offended by the word, I _might_ use it with my gay friends, but certainly not in the presence of someone I told _not_ to use it because I was offended. In your hypothetical, using the word in front of you really is exclusionary and mean, but I guarantee you it wouldn’t happen, unless I were a small-minded spiteful heterophobic bitch (which, of course, I’m not :p). People who pull pranks like that have issues. > [@](#): > > Now I know Esprix would never do this, and I hope he understands that I just used him hypothetically here. Understood, especially since (and I’m going to bold this just in case anyone thinks I’m taking some kind of hard-line stance) **I don’t have any problem with the word “queer” used in general context** , but you damn well better be one of my best friends before you start calling me “faggot.” I actually prefer the term “queer” because I don’t like the way LGBTQS looks (although “lesbigay” meaning “lesbian, bisexual and gay” I do rather like when referring to those specific sexual orientations in context). Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/93 "2000-08-29T19:54:13Z")
> [@](#): > > But they’re used all over here, by many people, including some of the most “enlightened” participants in this very thread. You know, I loathe vague allusions of wrongdoing made out of the blue regarding unnamed persons. I would personally prefer it if you either name names or not make such comments. If you genuinely wish to bring to someone’s attention what you believe is hypocrisy on their part, you need to get more specific; who knows, perhaps you can convince some people not to use the term. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/94 "2000-08-29T19:58:50Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **lissener** _ > > I think you’re finally beginning to get it. It’s a shock to you, I guess, to suddenly live in a world where you feel excluded; where you’re made to feel different. But I’m supposed to allow you to make me feel threatened, to feel that the overwhelming sense of separateness and exclusion I feel every day of my life is _never going to change,_ just so you don’t have to feel the occasional moment of discomfort? > > Toughen up. On the one hand, I applaud you for making a good point about the lives we live. On the other hand, is it going to solve anything? Hopefully example will lead to understanding. But let’s not push it any farther than that - otherwise, it’s just mean-spirited. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/95 "2000-08-29T20:00:53Z")
Esprix said: "If I said I were offended by the word, I might use it with my gay friends, but certainly not in the presence of someone I told not to use it because I was offended. In your hypothetical, using the word in front of you really is exclusionary and mean, but I guarantee you it wouldn’t happen, unless I were a small-minded spiteful heterophobic bitch (which, of course, I’m not ). People who pull pranks like that have issues. " Thank you. That’s all the point I was trying to make. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/96 "2000-08-29T20:01:52Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **lissener** _ > > And how about Showgirls, instead of Cabaret? _Showgirls?!?!_ Ugh. I just lost all respect for you. 😉 **goboy** , life truly is a cabaret, is it not? 😃 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/97 "2000-08-29T20:02:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Later, when he shanked a drive I thought about saying “If you’d just stop being a nigger and loosen up your swing, you might hit the fairway,” but saw the look on his face and thought better of it." So we know you think epithets. > [@](#): > > I don’t recall any queers being kidnapped from Africa and raised as slaves for generations. I don’t know how many queers have been lynched. We know you use “queer” in a derogatory tone. > [@](#): > > He’s stated that “queer” should be a Gay-use only term. He draws a parralel to the use of the word “nigger” by people of color. The latter case is ok for reasons of solidarity, as long as it’s only used by them. If a non-black uses it, it’s an insult. > I find both ideas to be a discriminatory claim to special privileges. You keep posting that you want to call gay people “queer”, and judging by the tone of your posts, it’s not because you feel solidarity with them. I’d be willing to cut you some slack, but I read your exchanges with Iampunha where you refused to apologize for insulting his grandmother. you struck me than, and now, as an unpleasant person who takes joy in causing other people pain. You’re just too funny. I can’t take you seriously anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/98 "2000-08-29T20:03:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by goboy \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > However, just last night I was having a conversation with a friend who is gay. We were talking about Lifetime TV, which he described as “TV for woman and queer men.” I said, “You know I don’t really like Lifetime.” He replied, and I quote, “Well, you would if you were queer.” > > > > In that example is he allowing me into his group, or is he just expressing that we are close enough where there is no offense meant or taken when either one of us may use the word “queer”? > > Well, I don’t know your friend, so I couldn’t say. > > Here’s my take on it: I don’t care about words, but intent. Scylla just wants to use the word to hurt gay people by getting to say, “Hey, queer!”, and then hide by saying gay people use the word, so why can’t he? That’s gutless. > > \*\* I don’t know you, lissener or Scylla from Adam, but I don’t think Scylla ever said that or implied that. A lot of what Scylla and I have been saying is similar, i.e. - is the word “queer” a slur or not. So far it seems the answer is, “Sometimes, it depends on who you ask.” But I don’t see Scylla as a bigot. Not to fuel any fires, but the only poster who I see as using it out-and-out disparagingly here is MGibson who said: > [@](#): > > **Look, you queer, if it is ok for you to use it in certain context then it is ok for others to use it in certain context.** … which I think was unfortunate. While emotions have been running a little high in here, I do think we are all seeking at the very least a common ground. MGibson’s comment was meant to inflame. I don’t think it was needed here. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/99 "2000-08-29T20:06:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gaudere \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > But they’re used all over here, by many people, including some of the most “enlightened” participants in this very thread. > > You know, I loathe vague allusions of wrongdoing made out of the blue regarding unnamed persons. I would personally prefer it if you either name names or not make such comments. If you genuinely wish to bring to someone’s attention what you believe is hypocrisy on their part, you need to get more specific; who knows, perhaps you can convince some people not to use the term. \*\* It was not my intention to accuse anyone of wrongdoing at this time (Been there, done that). I was merely explaining to lissener why I thought it worthwhile to check for consistency regarding the principle she was expounding. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/100 "2000-08-29T20:07:10Z")
Point taken, Esprix; I was just trying to communicate to 'Scylla the petty absurdity of equating his moment of discomfort with the lifetime of exclusion some of us have lived. I gather from your perspective that your youngish. If so you’ve grown up in a world very different from the one I grew up in. The word “queer” may have entered your vocabulary as a word of empowerment. For most of my life it’s been a weapon of hate. Not a pity party plea; just some perspective. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069.md?page=6)