# Homophobia? Queers? Survivor? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2000, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069 "2000-08-28T17:49:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/101 "2000-08-29T20:08:03Z")
I only use Jeezer to insult some particularly microcephalic Fundamentalist Christians who witness with all the tact and compassion of a rutting rhino. I have great respect for kind, virtuous, intelligent Christians like Polycarp. People like Wildest Bill, OTOH, are begging to be insulted. ---
**Author:** ![Gomez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d78d45/32.png) [@Gomez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gomez)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/102 "2000-08-29T20:09:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Here’s my take on it: I don’t care about words, but intent. Exactly my point of view, at least I think so. Certain posters are starting to get so touchy and the debate so tangled and heated that it’s getting harder and harder to state your views without stepping on someone’s toes. Here’s what I think. The word Queer IS offensive when: It is said by a straight man/woman to a homosexual man/woman with the intent to hurt his or her feelings. In this context it is a disparaging attack on homosexuals. The word queer is NOT offensive (I mean it still may be offensive but it is not intended as a bigoted remark) when: One homosexual says it to another eg. Queer Nation. One straight man says it to another straight man when there are no homosexuals in the vicinity (at least not to his knowledge) One straight man says it to a homosexual man who he didn’t know was gay. Under these circumstances it is up to the gay man in question to decide how he’d react but he should take into account the fact that the guy who said it had no idea that he was gay. When one straight man says it to a man he knows to be gay but within the context of a friendship where it is understood that no offence is meant. I know this sounds like a sort of rule book but it is not intended as such I am just trying to get down some circumstances when the word queer might be used and tell you what my views are on the offensiveness of the word in the particular contexts. Can someone please tell me if and where I am going wrong. (nicely please) Also, Lissener, when I compared the words queer and fuck it was in response to when you said: > [@](#): > > “If you use the word “queer” as an insult, then that tells me you find the concept of being gay an insulting one.” I was merely demonstrating that if I used the word queer it would not men I find the notion of homosexuality offensive, just as I would not find the concept of having sex offensive if I called someone a fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/103 "2000-08-29T20:15:45Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Jack Batty** _ > > However, just last night I was having a conversation with a friend who is gay. We were talking about Lifetime TV, which he described as “TV for woman and queer men.” I said, “You know I don’t really like Lifetime.” He replied, and I quote, “Well, you would if you were queer.” > > In that example is he allowing me into his group, or is he just expressing that we are close enough where there is no offense meant or taken when either one of us may use the word “queer”? > > Is this strinking a chord with anyone? Bingo - you were given permission by a friend. Anything else is, as most people have pointed out, rude and insensitive, and puts you way wicked open to accidentally insulting someone. And as far as the “rights” thing goes, anyone has the right to use any word, and anyone else has the right to be offended by it - so you rolls the dice, you takes your chances. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/104 "2000-08-29T20:23:22Z")
Lissener: You don’t understand. Your “lifetime of discomfort” has no bearing on it. I don’t care. I don’t inflict my problem on you. Please return the favor. The idea that you get to inflict some small amount of discomfort on me to educate me in your lifetime of martyrdom is ridiculous. Claiming to have it tough isn’t an excuse and it doesn’t give your arguments or standpoint any more weight. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/105 "2000-08-29T20:28:23Z")
I would like to nominate the following as the most absurd statements in a thread _rife_ with absurd statements: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gomez \* > \*\*The word queer is NOT offensive (I mean it still may be offensive but it is not intended as a bigoted remark) when: > … > One straight man says it to another straight man when there are no homosexuals in the vicinity (at least not to his knowledge) > > One straight man says it to a homosexual man who he didn’t know was gay. Under these circumstances it is up to the gay man in question to decide how he’d react but he should take into account the fact that the guy who said it had no idea that he was gay.\*\* The word “queer” (or “nigger” or “fundie” or “dyke” or “[whatever]”) is offensive whenever an individual feels offended by it. _Period._ You, Gomez, have every right to continue being stubbornly offensive. I will fight to the death your right to call me a queer (Well, maybe not to the death. Let’s say I’ll sign a petition. If my nails are dry. And if I’m not in a hurry.)–but I’ll claim my right to call you a rude boob if you do. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/106 "2000-08-29T20:33:49Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **lissener** _ > > I would never, except to be intentionally rude and insulting, use the word otherwise (and I’ve never heard of Jeezers). I would certainly never use the word and then act surprised if the person to whom I was referring was insulted by it. > > My position on people who use such labels is that they’re rude. Then color me rude - “Jeezer” is the term I use for somebody who gets in my face, tries to convert me, or otherwise infringes on my personal space, and yes, it’s meant to be derogatory. Some people might say, “I like gay people, but I can’t stand faggots,” but I say I like Christians, but I can’t stand Jeezers. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/107 "2000-08-29T20:42:14Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Scylla** _ > > Oh I’ve always understood, I just don’t care to cater to your need for turnabout. Sorry that life sucks for you, but I’m not going to kowtow to you because of it. Gee, thanks. On behalf of gay people everywhere, your sensitivity is most appreciated. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Wow, a disparagement based on my sexual orientation. What makes “silly breeder” any different? I find it insulting. Again, I prefer “Master of te Universe.” **Scylla** , I know you better than this - this is really beneath you. You’re starting to look petulant. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/108 "2000-08-29T20:49:40Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **lissener** _ > > I gather from your perspective that your youngish. If you call 32 “youngish,” which most of my dates don’t. If it helps, though, I was recently told I look 22. 😉 > [@](#): > > If so you’ve grown up in a world very different from the one I grew up in. The word “queer” may have entered your vocabulary as a word of empowerment. For most of my life it’s been a weapon of hate. I suppose it not only depends how much older than I you are, but also where you might have grown up and when exactly you came out. I was lucky enough (if you can call it that) to come out in 1987, right as AIDS was hitting the papers and the gay rights movement got a swift kick in the butt, so Queer Nation was alive and well while I was identifying as a gay person, so yes, when I came out had a lot to do with how I use the word. I have, however, been through the “hey queer” and “hey faggot” stages, both in school and in college as an out gay student. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/109 "2000-08-29T20:50:39Z")
Grrr. When a substantial segment of society makes it public knowledge that it finds a term offensive, regardless of what your personal opinions of that segment of society may be, it is your social obligation to refrain from use of that term. In conversation with a single individual, when that individual has previously made known to you that (s)he finds a given term offensive, your social obligation is to refrain from use of that term. This is not a legal requirement, nor is it necessarily a moral obligation. It is incumbent on you as a matter of manners. Just as using turn signals when driving, verbally excusing oneself when passing directly in front of another or in close proximity to another in a public place, saying please and thank you when served by a businessperson, and so on, are social obligations. You may ignore them at your pleasure. And the rest of us are free to consider you [several terms Gaudere would insist I take to the pit if I were to post them] in consequence. I recommend the idea of walking a mile in another’s moccasins; it’s not strictly religious, and gives great strides toward comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/110 "2000-08-29T20:59:21Z")
This thread seems to have settled into that stagnant phase where previously covered points are poked and prodded to see they have any fight left in them. As far as I can tell the consensus seems to be: [ul] [li]Some people, like myself, are very (not to say overly–I’m sure someone else will say it for me) sensitive to the disturbing power of some words, and–[/li][li]Most people agree that it’s rude to use such words except in certain private, mutually agreeable contexts, although–[/li][li]Everyone has a Constitutional right to use such words whenever they want, but–[/li][li]People who use those words indiscriminately, regardless of the feelings of others, are rude, and are probably–[/li]Considered a nuisance by Hooters waitresses and have a Howard Stern poster over their bed.[/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/111 "2000-08-29T20:59:32Z")
And let’s not forget that this is solely a straight/gay interaction thing. I’ve had more than one fellow gay man in a bar look me up and down and mutter, “Faggot” to his friends. (Alas, I’m sure **matt\_mcl** , being the radical that he is, has probably had to endure the same mistreatment by the “A-listers” from time to time.) It is insulting and offensive, and it was sure as little green bugs meant to be taken as such. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/112 "2000-08-29T21:01:37Z")
**Scylly** , you shouldn’t take offense at “silly breeder”; I don’t. Melissa Etheridge and Julie Cypher are far bigger breeders than I am–they’re ahead 2 kids to my none! ---
**Author:** ![Gomez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d78d45/32.png) [@Gomez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gomez)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/113 "2000-08-29T21:01:43Z")
Umm excuse me Lissener but never in this thread or in any other thread have I tried to be stubbornly offensive. If, by stubbornly offensive, you mean willing to defend my viewpoint then I guess you’re right. I’m not sure how many would agree with you. You are the one who keeps trying to make everything personal by swearing at people and calling their opinions absurd. I have tried to be civil throughout. What exactly was absurd about my statement? I believe it to be correct, if you don’t, please tell me why without having to resort to rhetoric or nice little gimmicks like the most absurd comment award. Rest assured I would never call you a queer and that’s because I know you are gay and don’t like it. Now please illustrate where I have said otherwise. If one straight man says it to another when no homosexuals are around it is not, at least to my mind, a bigoted statement. All I’m saying is that if queer is said with the intention to offend then it is offensive. If it is said, not intended as a bigoted statement and not intended to specifically offend anyone who is gay, then I don’t see why it should be made an issue of. That’s just what I think, I have read your arguments and I respect them but that is still what I think. You can take this post as a stubbornly offensive gesture or you can think I’m an "effing asshole"I don’t care. I’ve lost interest. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/114 "2000-08-29T21:05:08Z")
Esprix: Don’t you think “silly breeder,” is an unfortunate choice of insults, especially in a thread rife with complaints about being insulted based on sexual orientation? The master of the universe thing is supposed to be petulant, mirroring Lissener’s righteouss indignation. I’m not insensitive to the plights of the gay man in America, but they really have no bearing here. Lissener’s arguments aren’t any more or less correct depending on how tough it is to be gay. It is in that sense that “I don’t care.” I’ve insulted no one, said nothing disparaging, merely participated in a debate. I’ve been called an “asshole” a “silly breeder,” and it’s been implied that I’m a closet queen by people who claim to be arguing against sexual orientation based insults. Ironic, huh? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/115 "2000-08-29T21:11:01Z")
> [@](#): > > And let’s not forget that this is solely a straight/gay interaction thing. I’ve had more than one fellow gay man in a bar look me up and down and mutter, “Faggot” to his friends. (Alas, I’m sure matt\_mcl, being the radical that he is, has probably had to endure the same mistreatment by the > “A-listers” from time to time.) It is insulting and offensive, and it was sure as little green bugs meant to be taken as such. And that gay man is saying more about his own self-hatred than he is about you. Given that a)both you and Matt are very handsome, and b) intelligent, charming, and engaging, the only thing any gay man should be saying to you is, “Can I buy you a drink?” ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/116 "2000-08-29T21:11:53Z")
Gomez, you’ve put forth the _absurd_ theories outlined in your above post _twice_ in this thread, and I’ve responded to them _twice._ I can offer you no more illumination. If you insist on remaining in the dark, and yes being stubbornly offensive, it ain’t no thang to me anymore. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/117 "2000-08-29T21:20:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Don’t you think “silly breeder,” is an unfortunate choice of insults, especially in a thread rife with complaints about being insulted based on sexual orientation? The master of the universe thing is supposed to be petulant, mirroring Lissener’s righteouss indignation. I can’t call you silly breeder? I find the idea to be a discriminatory claim to special privileges. I don’t use the term anymore, but now I feel uncomfortable. Any time I’m around my straight friends,they refer to themselves this way, but I am excluded. Each time I hear it I am reminded that I am only included up to a certain point. Each time I hear it I realize it is a little bit of an attack against me as a member of the gay community. You don’t own the word. What if I don’t have the time to subscribe to the PC periodicals and learn the special weekly code phrases? Don’t you see that this kind of bullshit semantics actually detracts from equality? That it gives a false feeling of righteousness. The arguments should sound familiar to you, Scylla, after all, I C&P’ed them from your posts defending your use of “queer.” Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If you don’t like being called “silly breeder”, then think about how lissener feels. BTW, I keep seeing Scylla here, but where’s Charybdis? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/118 "2000-08-29T21:30:13Z")
As a “straight” man I can tell you that I’ve never used the term “breeder” to refer to other straight people, unless I was citing. I’ve never heard any straight person use the word “breeder”. I’ve only heard it from gay people who are trying to offend. Not so the word “queer”. I’ve heard it used offensively, and I’ve also heard it as almost a term of endearment. That “breeder” substituted for “queer” argument doesn’t fly, from either end of the spectrum. Go ahead and call me a “breeder”. Water off a duck’s back. When you use it, I know what your intention is, I just don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/119 "2000-08-29T21:32:21Z")
And we’re off! Back to the beginning. This is _so_ where I came in . . . ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2000, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069/120 "2000-08-29T21:52:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > \*\* > …only if it is _intended_ as an insult, and unless I know you or know of you, I probably won’t know your intentions, and given the past history of the word, and knowing full well that not everyone has embraced the word’s newly-attributed positive aspects, yes, I’m going to assume the worst and think you’re trying to slight me. Sorry, but it’s force of habit - it happens to gay folk an awful lot in the real world. > > \*\* I guess this is another illustration of how things can be so different for us. I would, if context were not enough to make it clear, expect the use of “queer” to **not** be intended as insulting. Let me ask another question of the group here. I was mulling over the changing definition and usage of “queer,” especially as I have seen it online, heard it in the news, and seen it in print. What I generally see in the usage is that it will be used to describe something other than an actual person. I see phrases like “queer rights,” or “queer issues,” but never see things like “openly queer candidate.” I always see “openly gay candidate.” Whenever someone in the media or online discusses an actual person, instead of an abstraction, they usually will change the term to “gay, bisexual, transgendered,” and so on. My question is, does this general use of the word bother you as well? Or is it a word that seems to sting only when applied to individuals? Normally, I just say “gay” or “homosexual,” and I have probably typed “queer” more in 2 posts than I ever have in my life. I do realize, when my attention is called to it, that sometimes those terms are more restrictive than they need be, but _is_ there another term that does a better job of saying “people of all ‘alternative’ lifestyles?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia-queers-survivor/31069.md?page=7)