# HomoPHOBIA? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 16, 2000, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731 "2000-07-16T10:32:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731/41 "2000-07-18T13:28:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > > Many are fond of claiming that a person’s orientation is so fixed that it cannot be regarded as a matter which is subject to any choice at all. Zarathustra is questioning this. No, I think he’s asking about sexual behavior, which is different from sexual orientation. We can all act contrary to our natures, but it doesn’t change our natures one whit. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731/42 "2000-07-18T13:30:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > > If your intention is indeed as you suggest, why then, open a thread outlining the ethical problems that you have with heterosexuality. And should the heterosexuals try to “get off the hook” by claiming that they can’t stop themselves from being heterosexual, we will jointly reject that excuse completely. Why should we? We should pity the poor heterosexual, and forgive them for something over which they have no control. Really, it’s not their fault they’re so depraved. Remember, love the sinner, hate the sexual sin… 😉 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![wacky\_ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/58956e/32.png) [@wacky\_ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wacky_ninja)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731/43 "2000-07-18T13:38:52Z")
Is it bisexuality, or bi curiousity? Why does some of the gay community not consider that an orientation? ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731/44 "2000-07-18T13:44:41Z")
Esprix, Rock on. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731/45 "2000-07-18T15:08:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wacky ninja \* > > Is it bisexuality, or bi curiousity? Why does some of the gay community not consider that an orientation? Sounds like a question for the Gay Guy or Bi Guy threads, but I’ll field it. The term is “bisexual.” There is a lot of biphobia (Ooo! An OT-related term!) in both the gay and straight communities, giving bisexuals their own unique brand of bigotry. Straights think it’s “just a phase,” while gays say they “can’t make up their mind.” Both communities have irrational fears that dating a bisexual would mean never having monogamy, since a bisexual “needs one of each.” “Bi-curious” has its own negative connotations, at least in the gay community. It usually means someone who identifies as straight, but walks on the wild side when it suits his or her libido. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Dumb\_Ox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Dumb\_Ox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumb_Ox)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731/46 "2000-07-18T17:46:19Z")
**beakerxf** , reading my mind, asked > [@](#): > > So you’re proposing that we all sit down and negotiate moral guidlines to all sexual behavior? Or are you just proposing that we just debate the guidelines that are currently in place? This is my question exactly. Do you want to talk about cultural values, which vary with geography, or moral values, which, presumably, don’t? **IzzyR** said > [@](#): > > If your intention is indeed as you suggest, why then, open a thread outlining the ethical problems that you have with heterosexuality. I’m saying we don’t _need_ a separate thread, because the moral issues are identical. There is a moral distinction between sexual behavior that is coercive or compulsive, on the one hand, and that which is consensual and volitional, on the other. **Zarathustra** seems to be making a case for a further moral distinction between heterosexuality and homosexuality as well. I don’t understand the grounds for this. I’d be equally confused if someone started a thread on “The Ethics of Doing Business in Pennsylvania,” rather than just business ethics. I freely admit that cultural and religious distinctions exist. But I didn’t think that’s what **Zarathustra** meant. ---
**Author:** ![beakerxf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@beakerxf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beakerxf)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731/47 "2000-07-18T18:16:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dumb Ox \* > This is my question exactly. Do you want to talk about cultural values, which vary with geography, or moral values, which, presumably, don’t? > \*\* Hmm, I’ve always thought of morals and ethics as being two separate things. In my mind, morals are seemingly arbitrary social conventions, whereas ethics are the basis of your laws (based on the idea of do no harm). So I assumed that morals do change from region to region, but ethics remain rather static. Hmmm, sounds like a potential GQ topic. ---
**Author:** ![Dumb\_Ox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Dumb\_Ox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumb_Ox)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731/48 "2000-07-18T18:22:57Z")
> [@](#): > > There may be some people at the opposite extreme–Don Juan syndrome or nymphomania, to use popular terms for it–where a handful of individuals have no control over their heterosexual urges either. But on this end of the spectrum, such out of control behavior is regarded as pathological . . . anyway (pulling back from the brink), excepting that extreme end of the spectrum as well, it appears that the vast majority of people are subject to moral standards in their sexual behavior, and live with the decision whether to conform to them or oppose them. **Esprix** can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the Kinsey scale rates the “flavor” of sexual urges, not their intensity. That is, I may be heterosexual and have a very weak sex drive. Someone else might be heterosexual and have overpowering urges, but we could both have the same score on the Kinsey scale. And so I’ll haul this thing down here from an earlier post… ```auto **same sex attraction** /|\ | | homosexual | bisexual | | | <---------------------------------> **opp. sex attraction** | | | asexual | heterosexual | | \|/ ``` …and ask **Esprix** his opinion of this approach. To me, it seems like an improvement on the Kinsey scale. Are you familiar with it? (If you’ve already addressed this in one of the Gay Guy threads, I apologize. Could you give me the thread title and a general idea where to find it?) **beakerxf** , you’re right. “Ethics” is a better word for this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731/49 "2000-07-18T18:44:45Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Dumb Ox_ > > I’d be equally confused if someone started a thread on “The Ethics of Doing Business in Pennsylvania,” rather than just business ethics. Well, in your zeal to address all sexual behaviorial ethics, let’s not forget that homosexuality and heterosexuality are different, just like men and women are both human beings, but both are different, and just like business ethics in Pennsylvania may differ slightly from business ethics in other countries, in the US, or in the world. There are similarities and both are coming from a similar “ground zero,” but there are details that vary from situation to situation. For example, being in a relationship with two male egos is _murder_ sometimes… 😉 Regarding the Kinsey Scale (from [http://www.indiana.edu/~kinsey/ak-hhscale.html](http://www.indiana.edu/~kinsey/ak-hhscale.html)): > [@](#): > > **Development of the Scale** > > Males do not represent two discrete populations, heterosexual and homosexual. The world is not to be divided into sheep and goats. It is a fundamental of taxonomy that nature rarely deals with discrete categories… The living world is a continuum in each and every one of its aspects, (p 639). > > While emphasizing the continuity of the gradations between exclusively heterosexual and exclusively homosexual histories, it has seemed desirable to develop some sort of classification which could be based on the relative amounts of heterosexual and homosexual experience or response in each history… An individual may be assigned a position on this scale, for each period in his life… A seven-point scale comes nearer to showing the many gradations that actually exist, (pp. 639, 656) > > - Kinsey, et al. (1948). _Sexual Behavior in the Human Male._ So, yes, it’s a measure of urge and experience, but not intensity (although intensity may flavor a respondant’s self-examination). The scale you posted is interesting. Is it your own, or are you citing other sex research? Esprix ---
**Author:** ![beakerxf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@beakerxf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beakerxf)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731/50 "2000-07-18T21:25:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dumb Ox \* > > \ > > \*\* I also like this scale better than the Kinsey scale. The Kinsey model would have put bi-sexual at the center of a Bell curve and that doesn’t seem quite right. It’s more believable that heterosexuals would fall at the center of a Bell curve and homosexuals/bisexuals/asexuals would fall at the ends. Is there some links where I could read up on this new scale? ---
**Author:** ![Dumb\_Ox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Dumb\_Ox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumb_Ox)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2000, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731/51 "2000-07-19T01:08:38Z")
**Exprix** , I understand that the application of ethical principles will be different depending upon whether you’re gay or straight, but the principles themselves should be the same. Generally, when we talk about ethics, we start with general principles and proceed to special cases, not the other way around. I’m actually _not_ all that interested in addressing general sexual ethics. I just want to make sure we don’t hold homosexual behavior to a different standard than we hold heterosexual behavior. But maybe I _am_ getting ahead of myself. 🙂 I wish I could say that the scale I posted is my own, but I’m afraid I’m not that clever. I got it from a lecture in one of my classes in grad school. (I’m in a school psychology program, and you’ll be happy to know that schools are finally training psychologists and counselors to address the special mental health needs of gay, lesbian, and questioning youth.) I don’t know if this scale has been used in any research. I’ll have to go look in my notes and see what I can find. **beakerxf** , I don’t think the Kinsey scale assumes a normal distribution. I think they would say that the distribution is positively skewed, with the hump of the curve far off to the left, with the tail to the right. (And if “hump” and “tail” aren’t appropriate words to describe the Kinsey scale, I don’t know what is. :D) But I agree that this new system is a better way to think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2000, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731/52 "2000-07-19T14:29:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beakerxf \* > > The Kinsey model would have put bi-sexual at the center of a Bell curve and that doesn’t seem quite right. It’s more believable that heterosexuals would fall at the center of a Bell curve and homosexuals/bisexuals/asexuals would fall at the ends. Actually, AFAIK, Kinsey only classified sexual orientation, but didn’t put the population on that scale. Some people think that the population would fall along a bell curve, as you said, meaning most people are bisexual. Others believe people fall in a double bell curve, meaning there are lots of mostly gay and mostly straight people, but exclusively hetero, homo and bi are all the minorities. Theories abound, but the Kinsey Scale itself says nothing about how the population falls. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2000, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731/53 "2000-07-19T18:27:28Z")
Esprix, you will be sorely missed while away from your computer… On the above-mentioned topic of “choosing” homo- or heterosexuality, did anyone on the west coast catch the front page of this morning’s LA Times? A large church is touting their huge success rate with “fixing” gays & lesbians and making them straight. The preacher is apparently one of these “fixed” former gay men. Fixed? I had no idea you were broken… ---
**Author:** ![beakerxf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@beakerxf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beakerxf)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2000, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731/54 "2000-07-19T19:42:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by EJsGirl \* > > Fixed? I had no idea you were broken… Hmmmmm, maybe they meant “fixed” in the spay/neuter sense. You sure you want to move out west, Esprix? It sounds the reparation folks out there play rough. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2000, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731/55 "2000-07-19T22:46:06Z")
But why neuter a gay man anyway? It’s not like they’re gonna reproduce . . . 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2000, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731/56 "2000-07-20T10:48:55Z")
I’m sure that there are exceptions to the rule out there, maybe some word purists among us, but my (admittedly relatively limited and personal) experience is that anyone who complains about the WORD homophobia are guilty of the definition we currently ascribe the term. _“I ain’t scared of them queer faggots, you know. I just don’t like them.”_ * * * Yer pal, Satan _TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING: Three months, one week, four days, 8 hours, 45 minutes and 19 seconds. 4094 cigarettes not smoked, saving $511.82. Life saved: 2 weeks, 5 hours, 10 minutes._ ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2000, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731/57 "2000-07-20T14:09:52Z")
You might be being a bit harsh in this case, **Satan**. In the OP he is quite clear that he is afraid he might actually be a little homophobic and actively wants to not be so. In this case, let’s cut him a little slack. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2000, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731/58 "2000-07-21T18:48:27Z")
This question is directed to the two gentlemen whose posts precede this one. Here you are, discussing earnestly whether the OP is to classified as a homophobe. The seriousness of the charge is appreciated by all. Evidently we are dealing with two paragons of tolerence, acceptance of alternative lifestyles, and personal freedom. Opponents of bigotry and stereotyping. Meanwhile, over in the BBQ Pit, both of you gentlemen are featured in a thread which viciously attacks and ridicules Fundamentalist Christians. The nature of crimes committed by these evil people is apparently the expression of views that you don’t agree with and think are silly, praying out loud, and other such heinous crimes against humanity such as putting up posters inviting others to join them, and (horror of horrors) wearing matching T-shirts. Also, in some cases, arrogance, but even there no attempt is made to appreciate that all fundamentalists might not be as arrogant as the one’s you’ve met that are. Tolerance? Freedom? Judging each person individually? What gives? ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2000, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731/59 "2000-07-21T22:40:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > > **Meanwhile, over in the BBQ Pit, both of you gentlemen are featured in a thread which viciously attacks and ridicules Fundamentalist Christians.** I guess you didn’t actually, you know, READ my OP there. WHy don’t you do this again, please. All the way to the last paragraph - you know, the one where I point out exactly that I am talking about those particular people who annoyed the fuck out of me and people like them who also annoy the fuck out of me? If it is intollerant to say that I like my plane to not have a bunch of idiots on it who annoy me, so be it. And if you say that I was labelling them as fundies, they labelled themselves - remember the fucking shirts they all were wearing?!? If you don’t know the difference between “I don’t like a group of people because they do things in the privacy of their own home” and “I don’t like people who annoy me personally in public” buy a fucking map. I’m not homophobic, but if I was surrounded by a bunch of men in that airport having sex with each other, I would have been a bit upset about that as well. * * * Yer pal, Satan _TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING: Three months, one week, five days, 20 hours, 37 minutes and 5 seconds. 4154 cigarettes not smoked, saving $519.30. Life saved: 2 weeks, 10 hours, 10 minutes._ ---
**Author:** ![Klaatu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Klaatu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Klaatu)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2000, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731/60 "2000-07-22T03:35:57Z")
A distinction needs to be made here. Being homo/hetero/whatever phobic is not the same as being “not turned on” about a particular sex act. I am sure Esprix doesn’t get turned on thinking about a blowjob from Pamela Lee, as I dont get get turned on about getting a blowjob from that dude on Will and Grace. That doesn’t make either of us “homophobic”, it just means we like different things. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homophobia/25731.md?page=4)