# homosexual behaviour, the damage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2003, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683 "2003-03-07T07:35:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683/61 "2003-03-08T17:02:06Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m asking what, exactly, that damage is. Is’nt that clear? Guys get told they have to do all sorts of unpleasant things (fighting in the army, working their butt of) or they won’t be real men. If they are not real men, they will not be loved, they won’t be respected and they will not get the girl. So guys go out and do all these unpleasant things, thus preserving society as we knew it. Homosexuals (the general wrong opinion equals gay to effeminate) prove that whole structure of belief to be just plain -real-men-emotional-blackmail. If that doesn’t damage society, (at least, an older kind of society then the kind we live in today) I do not know what would! The very same deep, irrational dislike went out to so called “loose women” around the 1900’s. Here women (not men) were the primary hating party. For good reason, too! If “loose women” offered sex free to eligeble bachelors, why would these bachelors bother marrying some decent girl? All the decent girls would be leftover! Veneral disease would spread like mad! Talk about a threat to society! ---
**Author:** ![Neroli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a4c791/32.png) [@Neroli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neroli)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683/62 "2003-03-08T19:49:04Z")
Wow, I’m glad I woke you folks up. A few points in reply: to Bo 989: Yes, certain aberrations are neutral and free from the pressures of natural selection. And where did I say anything about an end state? I only said I would like homosexuality to be eliminated because it causes conflicts that hurt people (gay people, that is) already. Oh, and my understanding of everything is superficial at best…but thanks for the reminder. PizzaBrat: I never said gays were wrong. I took pains to avoid using that word. Again, I find gays to be exactly as morally objectionable as I do nearsighted people. which leads me to… —Apos: “Well, don’t forget that people might not share your enlightened view of “what’s right.” Not everyone falls for the genetic fallacy, whereby we use some perception of what’s natural (even a painfully flawed perception) to go to a “should.”—” a) I didn’t say homosexuality was unnatural. I said it causes problems among those who have it. b)I didn’t say gays should stop homosexual behavior. What I hinted at was that if and when it becomes possible, it should be eliminated from the problems people have to face. Oh, and you talk about logical fallacies–here’s one I suggest that everyone on this board try to avoid:“Everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi.” I think in logic that’s termed “The Leftist Fallacy.” That said, Apos, I do appreciate you offering up an explanation as to why homosexuality might be selected for…no, more precisely, not selected against. I wish more “activists” would put in the time and effort to debate rather than simply decry. Oh–and I forgot who was guilty of this–I noted a little circular reasoning a bit ago: If people would just decide to stop feeling repulsed by certain things, they could. Therefore this repulsion is something one can get rid of simply by deciding to. Cilantro? I can decide not to let my dislike of it govern my life. I can decide to avoid restaurants where it is served. I can decide not to beat people up because they cook with it. I can decide not to judge someone’s worth based on whether or not they eat it. I can decide not to push to make cooking with it illegal. I can’t decide away the fact that when I put something cooked with it in my mouth, I feel like puking. But wait…if it were to be discovered to be a carcinogen, maybe I would decide to do what I could to stop its harvest for human consumption, even though I never touch it myself. Tanaqui: Women on women porn is admired by many straight males who feel repugnance at the thought of male-male sex. I would say that, with a little thought, even you could come up with a (superficial, at least) natural selection explanation for why that is. As for women admiring male gay sexual activity, I haven’t heard much about it. In fact, most females I’ve ever heard discuss the subject don’t find it titillating at all, in spite of their better general social acceptance of male homosexuals. To EvenSven: Then why are they called “neurological disorders”? In any case, I didn’t say that there aren’t gays who don’t adapt (triple negation unavoidable–sorry) fairly well to the difference in wiring, but look at the stats relating to the pathologies I mentioned. And I noticed that the CITE-monster didn’t get on you for your upside-down glasses experiment–for obvious reasons. Oh, and I think our modern lifestyle does in fact lead to psychological problems–precisely because we are not wired for it. (Never will be, either…but that’s another story.) I shall let you, my fellow slivers of God, have the last words on this. I need to move on. Peace be within you so that it may be without. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683/63 "2003-03-08T20:09:48Z")
> [@](#): > > **Neroli** said: > Yes, certain aberrations are neutral and free from the pressures of natural selection. And where did I say anything about an end state? I only said I would like homosexuality to be eliminated because it causes conflicts that hurt people (gay people, that is) already. Oh, and my understanding of everything is superficial at best…but thanks for the reminder. Please provide some sort of cite for your implication that homosexuality is an “aberration.” It is not regarded as such by the AMA or the APA. Also how do you propose to “eliminate” homosexuals? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683/64 "2003-03-08T20:38:25Z")
—And where did I say anything about an end state? I only said I would like homosexuality to be eliminated because it causes conflicts that hurt people (gay people, that is) already.— I already delivered a killing blow to that argument. You can’t go from the statistical aggregate to a positive or even causative case against type. If you could, consistency would demand that you also be for eliminating other subgroups with sub-par aggregate statistics. —Apos, I do appreciate you offering up an explanation as to why homosexuality might be selected for…no, more precisely, not selected against.— No, selected for. In social groups, males competing for the top female wastes an incredible amount of time and energy, not to mention risks dangers of death and serious injury. A lifestyle that focuses on less demanded individuals (other males) can thus be very beneficial to the entire social group: less hurt or exhausted group members to worry about. —If people would just decide to stop feeling repulsed by certain things, they could. Therefore this repulsion is something one can get rid of simply by deciding to.— My argument was this: with minimal effort, you can rid yourself of reflexive repulusions, and feel repulsed less often, which is a considerable benefit in happiness and lower stress. Provided the thing your are being repulsed by is harmless (cilantro, gay men making out), you’re coming out way ahead of the game, able to appreciate and enjoy more things in life than you could before. I could even demonstrate this using utility graphs. —I can’t decide away the fact that when I put something cooked with it in my mouth, I feel like puking.— 99 times out of 100, this is simply because you’ve decided that this is the way it’s going to be and that it can’t be changed. You’re reinforcing the dislike yourself, reflexively. You can usually destroy the reflex even in one sitting if you think through it. —As for women admiring male gay sexual activity, I haven’t heard much about it.— The largest single group of consumers for gay male romance noevls? Straight women. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683/65 "2003-03-08T20:44:29Z")
—Oh, and you talk about logical fallacies–here’s one I suggest that everyone on this board try to avoid:“Everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi.” I think in logic that’s termed “The Leftist Fallacy.”— Oh, in our little lesson about fallicies: this was a non-sequitur leading to a straw man, all in the service of an evasion called tu quoque (making a counter-charge to avoid someone’s charge). And you still haven’t supported your claim that homosexuals wouldn’t be better off if they lived in a more tolerant society. And I think it’s time for you to provide a cite for your claim that: “That inevitably leads to operating errors, such as depression, schizophrenia, pedophilia, suicide…all of which are measurably more common among gays than heteros.” I don’t doubt that some of these are true, but let’s actually take a look at the data so we can get down into the nitty gritty. ---
**Author:** ![avalongod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@avalongod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/avalongod)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683/66 "2003-03-08T20:47:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*—The largest single group of consumers for gay male romance noevls? Straight women. \*\* I really don’t know anything about this…but I’m gonna have to call BS on this anyway. Do you have any cites to back this up…that is research, not propaganda from special interest groups? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683/67 "2003-03-08T20:54:14Z")
**Neroli** , I see your point, even if it’s a “blue-sky” abstraction. (You cannot “eliminate homosexuality” in any actual process unless either (a) you are God and take it in hand to make the change in the internal capacity for desire, something He has not done (which theists might do well to take into account in discussing the subject); or (b) you are prepared to kill every homosexual as he/she becomes evident as one – something I’m quite positive your speculative comment was not envisioning. And then you still have the closeted gays who either don’t act or are sufficiently discreet to avoid detection.) However, one point against your speculation needs to be made – and it can best be done by the old cliché of analogizing homosexuality to left-handedness. Certainly lefties face a major group of problems in a society geared to the 90% majority who are right-handed, not least from a small subset of people who feel they should be forced into using their right hands as the dominant hand. This causes great frustration and a lack of dexterity among many lefties, particularly those children who are being forced to “be right-handed” by well-meaning but ignorant adults. But their problems are not caused by their being left-handed, _but rather by a society that insists on conforming everything to the right-handed majority._ It’s quite possible to forge left-handed scissors, for example, and one or two companies do it for the leftie market. I trust the point to this analogy is self-explanatory. ---
**Author:** ![bo989](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9c0ed/32.png) [@bo989](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bo989)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683/68 "2003-03-08T21:29:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by avalongod \* > \*\*I really don’t know anything about this…but I’m gonna have to call BS on this anyway. Do you have any cites to back this up…that is research, not propaganda from special interest groups? \*\* Half of the audience for the Showtime original series “Queer As Folk” are said to be straight women. [cite](http://www.queerarchive.com/usartj63.htm) ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683/69 "2003-03-08T22:15:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by avalongod \* > \*\*I really don’t know anything about this…but I’m gonna have to call BS on this anyway. Do you have any cites to back this up…that is research, not propaganda from special interest groups? \*\* “Slash” fan fiction- fan fiction that puts male characters in homosexual relationships- is largely written and read by women. This isn’t a reliable [source](http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Cafe/2564/slash.html), but it explains the situation pretty well. ---
**Author:** ![avalongod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@avalongod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/avalongod)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683/70 "2003-03-08T22:16:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bo989 \* > \*\*Half of the audience for the Showtime original series “Queer As Folk” are said to be straight women. > > [cite](http://www.queerarchive.com/usartj63.htm) \*\* Interesting…and I can see that. Probably tuning into a good show…a bit different from the novels though. Still curious to see a cite on that. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683/71 "2003-03-08T22:37:47Z")
—I really don’t know anything about this…but I’m gonna have to call BS on this anyway. Do you have any cites to back this up…that is research, not propaganda from special interest groups?— Only ancedotally from authors of these sorts of romance novels: statistical breakdowns of these book purchases by gender and sexuality don’t exist, but writers like E. Lynn Harris and James Earl Hardy seem to think that their audience is women, and when they do appearances, they estimate that around 80% of the crowds of fans they draw are women. Harris pretty much built his career on selling to women in beauty parlors in the south. I doubt that’s enough to convince you: but it can’t hurt to take a look around for yourself. And if you want to pretend it’s all propaganda, I suggest you don’t take too close a look at the slash fiction community. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683/72 "2003-03-08T23:00:41Z")
Total hijack: Polycarp: you’re partly right, but the full story is probably even stranger than that. You see, what we have is a correlation: left-handedness and non-longlevity. But what we’re missing is this fact: the program to force left handers into being right handed was mostly active in the early part of this century. So the older you are, the more likely you are to have been a left-hander who was turned into a right-hander when young. What does that mean? It means that causality is actually working the other way around! Righthandedness isn’t causing longlevity: longlevity is “causing” righthandedness (by skewing the population among older people)! Weird stuff. A similar effect is the association between pipe smoking and longlevity. This doesn’t prove that picking up the pipe will help you live longer: what it reflects is that pipe smoking is a habit most people don’t pick up until they’re older. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683/73 "2003-03-09T00:21:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\*This is actually completely true. > > Every time I talk or e-mail or communicate with my gay pals, I have the urge to be ever more fabulous, but…since I know I can never measure up to their fabulosity (plus I’ll never be a snappy dresser. Even a freshly pressed tux looks rumpled on me). Thus, I’m constantly in the depressed funk for which I’m characteristically known. And it’s all the fault of gay people. > > Fenris, unfabulous \*\* Well, I think you’re fab, **Fenris**. You’re the pearl, that the divers fetch up. Milton Berle AND tomato ketchup! 😉 **Neroli** -do a search for fan fiction slash sometimes. (Slash being homosexual pairings). The majority are guy/guy written by females. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683/74 "2003-03-09T00:44:26Z")
Slashfic, left-handedness, longevity, twin studies, and relative degree of fabulosity, all on one page! God, I love this board! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683/75 "2003-03-09T00:56:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*Total hijack: > Polycarp: you’re partly right, but the full story is probably even stranger than that. You see, what we have is a correlation: left-handedness and non-longlevity. > Righthandedness isn’t causing longlevity: longlevity is “causing” righthandedness (by skewing the population among older people)! Weird stuff. > > \*\* Truly weird stuff. I had no idea that one’s hand-preference was correlated to the amount of time one would laugh at jokes. So left-handers _snigger_ briefly while right-handers _guffaw_ excessively? Ahhhh. Ya learn something new every day. Sorry **Apos** …I just _couldn’t_ resist. 😃 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683/76 "2003-03-09T01:18:44Z")
The board loves you too, **Poly**. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![avalongod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@avalongod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/avalongod)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683/77 "2003-03-09T05:28:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*—Oh, and you talk about logical fallacies–here’s one I suggest that everyone on this board try to avoid:“Everyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi.” I think in logic that’s termed “The Leftist Fallacy.”— > > Oh, in our little lesson about fallicies: this was a non-sequitur leading to a straw man, all in the service of an evasion called tu quoque (making a counter-charge to avoid someone’s charge). > > \*\* Man, chill out, speech and debate class ended with the 11th grade. 😃 QUOTE]\*Originally posted by Apos \* [BOnly ancedotally from authors of these sorts of romance novels: statistical breakdowns of these book purchases by gender and sexuality don’t exist, but writers like E. Lynn Harris and James Earl Hardy seem to think that their audience is women, and when they do appearances, they estimate that around 80% of the crowds of fans they draw are women. Harris pretty much built his career on selling to women in beauty parlors in the south. I doubt that’s enough to convince you: but it can’t hurt to take a look around for yourself. \*\* [/QUOTE] lol…certainly not!!! 😛 But that’s cool. 🆒 I wouldn’t be stunned if women wrote a good proportion of such novels…or even straight men, hey money is money. I’m not sure why we’re heading down this line though…what’s the point of this? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683/78 "2003-03-09T05:57:29Z")
avalongod, you seem less and less like “a researcher who conducts psychological research with a jail population” —Man, chill out, speech and debate class ended with the 11th grade.— Wow, I finally wooshed someone! Do I get a commemorative medal? —I’m not sure why we’re heading down this line though…what’s the point of this?— What are you talking about? Where am I? What am I doing here? Of course, if I can’t remember, I could always read back through the thread to jog my memory… oh yes: the point was, you asked me, calling BS on my statement. You certainly seemed pretty worked up about it then. ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683/79 "2003-03-09T12:23:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by avalongod \* > Also we do get into some problems with methodology…many of the studies you cite rely on how perpetrators of homosexual rape state that they “prefer” heterosexual contact. Hmmm…do prisoners ever lie, falsly report, attempt to appear super masculine or simply function as poor historians. Again, this line of thinking has been discredited through other lines of research. Wish I could remember the cites for those penile plethesmograph studies, but at the moment I can’t \*\* In all of the googling I’ve done in the past few hours, I have yet to find anyone who shares your views, with the exception of a Christian site which noted that “anyone who commits a homosexual act is a homosexual”. Beyond that, site after site seems to say that rapists who rape men are heterosexual in almost all of the cases. I could post 20 examples but I don’t see the point. I already provided the same information, which was discredited by you as being outdated. If this “old” way of thinking has been so “widely discredited” why is there no evidence of it that I can find? Could you please provide some cites that support your view? ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683/80 "2003-03-09T12:42:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Please provide some sort of cite for your implication that homosexuality is an “aberration.” It is not regarded as such by the AMA or the APA. Also how do you propose to “eliminate” homosexuals? \*\* Yes, but there are numerous critics who say that the APA and AMA’s decision in the early 70’s to say that homosexuality is not a disorder was motivated not by scientific discovery but by lobbying by angry gay activists. Many psychologists today continue to believe it is a mental disorder in spite of the careless decisions of a couple of associations. UnuMondo [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-behaviour-the-damage/159683.md?page=5)