# Homosexual Marriage: Why OSC is against it. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 26, 2004, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663 "2004-12-26T08:23:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663/181 "2004-12-30T21:34:35Z")
Prisoner6655blahblahblah, you’ve been [summoned.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5664114#post5664114) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663/182 "2004-12-30T21:36:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I would hesitate to say “everything” is better, but yeah, I think most things are better now than they were fifty years ago. I can’t think of an exception, but I’m sure one will come to me eventually. Ooh! Ooh! What do you think of mine, in the post above yours? I think they’re pretty good. What are you, some sort of polysorbate lover? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663/183 "2004-12-30T21:38:18Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Ooh! Ooh! What do you think of mine, in the post above yours? I think they’re pretty good. What are you, some sort of polysorbate lover? > > Daniel My opinions about polysorbates is between me and God, and I’ll thank you to keep your nose out of it. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663/184 "2004-12-30T21:43:39Z")
The chips I’m eating have polysorbates in them right now. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663/185 "2004-12-30T21:48:34Z")
You know, either **Lilairen** or I ought to open a Pit thread on irrational polyphobia! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663/186 "2004-12-30T21:54:57Z")
> [@prisoner6655321](#): > > Sorry, I forgot to address this. You obviously interpret the Bible differently than I. So do YOU think that Jesus would vote for SSM? Yes, for it fulfills the his penultimate commandment to love others as you would yourself. You cannot love them and deny them full social equality and dignity. You cannot love them and deny them the things I mentioned in my post above. Jesus wouldn’t simply vote for gay marriage, he would campaign for it. > [@](#): > > In the case of SSM, until you admit that the world is becoming worse (and I grant you that I haven’t proven that in this discussion) it’s quite impossible. You act as though the world can only be moving in one direction or the other. The world is in portions moving in all directions at all times, better and worse, richer and poorer, freer and less free. The load is upon you to prove that the world is moving in the direction you think it’s moving in the areas you wish to discuss. I think that the fact that you haven’t even tried to shows that you know you can’t. > [@](#): > > We could find statistics on both sides of the argument that co-relate. So, if you don’t believe me, you have to either take my word for it (for the time being) or disagree with me. Your task isn’t to convince me, it’s to show that you can logically support your position. That means laying out your specific position, laying down your basic logical precepts and then showing evidence based on them. Then you have to defend your basic precepts against disagreement. Haven’t you ever written a thesis paper? > [@](#): > > See? You keep asking for specifics. DIRECT evidence. The evidence, when I present it, is indirect. Your conflation of specificity and directness is tiresome. Even indirect evidence should, if it exists, be specifically describable and logically supportable. Your continued attempts to dodge critical analysis of your position are not going to work. People will not give up and let you present rant as fact. You will be held accountable on this board, particularly in this forum, for the positions you take. If you can’t support them, you won’t last long here. You’ll either get sick of being ganged up on when you run your ignorant mouth or you’ll get sick of being ignored. This is a board that encourages intellectual combat, not shadowboxing. > [@](#): > > Regardless, I don’t have time for this. You do realize that every time you take the time to type that it makes your statement less believable, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663/187 "2004-12-30T22:10:49Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > My opinions about polysorbates is between me and God, and I’ll thank you to keep your nose out of it. Separation between Church and polysorbates–another of the problems of the last half-century. > [@spectrum](#): > > The chips I’m eating have polysorbates in them right now. Okay, **prisoner** , I’ll give you this: here we’ve got ONE homosexual ruining society. How do you account for the rest? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663/188 "2004-12-30T22:13:37Z")
**Spectrum** , what’s your opinion of the following as a statement of belief? > [@](#): > > Leader: Do you believe in God the Father? > > People: I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. > > Leader: Do you believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God? > > People: I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. > He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit > and born of the Virgin Mary. > He suffered under Pontius Pilate, > was crucified, died, and was buried. > He descended to the dead. > On the third day he rose again. > He ascended into heaven, > and is seated at the right hand of the Father. > He will come again to judge the living and the dead. > > Leader: Do you believe in God the Holy Spirit? > > People: I believe in the Holy Spirit, > the holy catholic Church, > the communion of saints, > the forgiveness of sins, > the resurrection of the body, > and the life everlasting. > > Leader: Will you continue in the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in the prayers? > > People: I will, with God’s help. > > Leader: Will you persevere in resisting evil, and, whenever you fall into sin, repent and return to the Lord? > > People: I will, with God’s help. > > Leader: Will you proclaim by word and example the Good News of God in Christ? > > People: I will, with God’s help. > > Leader: Will you seek and serve Christ in all persons, loving your neighbor as yourself? > > People: I will, with God’s help. > > Leader: Will you strive for justice and peace among all people, and respect the dignity of every human being? > > People: I will, with God’s help. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663/189 "2004-12-30T22:16:04Z")
Well, I recite something close to identical to that every Sunday, so I’d say I rate it really highly. Not so sure how I measure up to it, but I rate it pretty highly. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663/190 "2004-12-30T22:36:22Z")
Straight, heterosexual, Christian woman checking in here, and yes, I believe Jesus would be vote for homosexual marriage, and I am willing to stake my immortal soul on it. Among other things, I figure if I’m to be condemned for believing that, there’s a long line of other things I stand to be condemned for and I’ll try to take my damnation with the same honesty I’ve lived my life with. By the way, **spectrum** , you forgot one. I’ve been told one of the key points which led to Vermont’s legalizing same sex marriage was a case in which half of a gay couple died. After he was buried, his family, from whom he was estranged because of his homosexuality, had his body moved and, of course, refused to tell his partner. Even though they’d been together for over 20 years, because his partner had no legal relationship with him, he had no standing and no way of requiring that anyone tell him where his partner was buried. **prisoner6655321** , can you imagine what it’s like not even to be able to place flowers on your spouse’s grave, assuming you have one or aspire to one? Can you imagine what it’s like to be told you’re immoral for enjoying her smile? Forget it. Why I am I even wasting pixels? You haven’t addressed any other issues I’ve raised. Why should you even bother to trouble yourself now? After all, I’m just another sinner who associates with sinners and is therefore unworthy of the attentions of a good Christian like yourself. CJ ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663/191 "2004-12-30T22:42:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Leader: Will you strive for justice and peace among all people, and respect the dignity of every human being? > > People: I will, with God’s help. Mebbe he forgot that part. I do not know if Prisoner has kids, but I hope like hell that none of them are gay–although maybe that would open his eyes a bit more. ---
**Author:** ![prisoner6655321](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f8ce5/32.png) [@prisoner6655321](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prisoner6655321)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663/192 "2004-12-30T22:51:23Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > By the way, **spectrum** , you forgot one. I’ve been told one of the key points which led to Vermont’s legalizing same sex marriage was a case in which half of a gay couple died. After he was buried, his family, from whom he was estranged because of his homosexuality, had his body moved and, of course, refused to tell his partner. Even though they’d been together for over 20 years, because his partner had no legal relationship with him, he had no standing and no way of requiring that anyone tell him where his partner was buried. **prisoner6655321** , can you imagine what it’s like not even to be able to place flowers on your spouse’s grave, assuming you have one or aspire to one? Can you imagine what it’s like to be told you’re immoral for enjoying her smile? I contend that they are the real bigots. Those that abuse their power are the real evil. I agree with the goals of SSM. That you should be allowed to visit in the hospital, should be allowed to be named in the will, and know where your loved one is buried. It’s the abuse of marriage that is sinful. But I don’t think that marriage is the only way that you can get the rights that you deserve. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663/193 "2004-12-30T23:01:56Z")
> [@prisoner6655321](#): > > I contend that they are the real bigots. Those that abuse their power are the real evil. I agree with the goals of SSM. That you should be allowed to visit in the hospital, should be allowed to be named in the will, and know where your loved one is buried. It’s the abuse of marriage that is sinful. But I don’t think that marriage is the only way that you can get the rights that you deserve. Well, **now** we’re getting somewhere! (Thanks, Sis – somehow you always know the right things to say!) Okay, _in your opinion_ – and I for one promise to respect your statement of opinion – why is SSM an “abuse of marriage”? In what way does enabling same-sex couples who wish to do so to marry injure the institution of marriage? Do you accept the distinction between a religious ceremony and the civil institution, as regards marriage? That people who believe in God and who wish to vow fidelity to each other before Him may do so, while anyone who so chooses (provided they meet the state’s qualifications) may contract a civil marriage? What rights do gay couples deserve? What other ways than marriage (and yeah, I know civil unions) can they get them? Are you thinking of private contractual arrangements? Or civil unions? If the former, how can they receive those rights which are accorded only to couples, since a contract cannot bind a third party to honor it? If civil unions, will such unions be legally equivalent to marriages in the rights they bestow? If not, why not? If so, what’s the sticking point on letting it be called “marriage”? I don’t mean to deluge you with questions, so much as to find out exactly what it is you’re thinking that caused you to make that post. Because honestly, I had not seen you as in any way willing to accept gay couples as deserving of **any** rights, based on your previous posts. And I still want to understand in what way recognizing SSMs will contribute to the decline of society, in your view. I realize you think that – I don’t see **why** you do (and, based on other posts, I’m far from alone in that failure to understand). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663/194 "2004-12-30T23:03:18Z")
Rodney Dangerfield (the late, lamented): _Preacher says I gotta love my neighbor like myself. What, I gotta go next door and jerk him off too?_ Gonna miss you, big guy. Too hip for the room. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663/195 "2004-12-30T23:19:36Z")
> [@prisoner6655321](#): > > I contend that they are the real bigots. You’re the one who voted those real bigots into office. > [@](#): > > That you should be allowed to visit in the hospital, should be allowed to be named in the will, and know where your loved one is buried. That’s marriage. Marrigiage is a social contract, and you just described a good deal of it. > [@](#): > > It’s the abuse of marriage that is sinful. And again, you demean me, you demean my love. You call it less than yours, you call it sinful and abusive. > [@](#): > > But I don’t think that marriage is the only way that you can get the rights that you deserve. Not when you anti-marriage people vote for laws that also ban civil unions. ---
**Author:** ![prisoner6655321](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f8ce5/32.png) [@prisoner6655321](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prisoner6655321)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663/196 "2004-12-30T23:23:08Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > > [@prisoner6655321](#): > > > > It’s the abuse of marriage that is sinful. > > And again, you demean me, you demean my love. You call it less than yours, you call it sinful and abusive. How can you not see that I was talking about the heterosexual abuse of heterosexual marriage that is sinful? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663/197 "2004-12-30T23:26:24Z")
> [@prisoner6655321](#): > > How can you not see that I was talking about the heterosexual abuse of heterosexual marriage that is sinful? I for one didn’t get that (see my question-filled post above). And I’d venture to guess that that was the case for most thread participants, as well. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663/198 "2004-12-30T23:30:36Z")
> [@prisoner6655321](#): > > How can you not see that I was talking about the heterosexual abuse of heterosexual marriage that is sinful? You spend an entire thread attacking the dignity of gay people, attacking our relationships, calling us a threat to marriage, and then you expect us not to think you’re continuing your heartless attacks on our humanity when you refer to the “abuse of marriage”? ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663/199 "2004-12-30T23:34:34Z")
> [@VanityFare](#): > > … But here goes: > > Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. romans 1:26-27 > > This is an example of the bible saying homosexuality is a sin… No, this is an example of the bible saying that God changed their orientation as a punishment. If you read the preceding verses, you’ll see that the sin that they were being punished for was idolatry: “Claiming to be wise, they became fools; and they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling a mortal human being or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles.” (Romans 1:22 - 23) There’s nothing in the New Testament condemning homosexuality. But instead of hijacking this thread further, I recommend this thread: [Christianity and homosexuality - please explain](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=254930) , where you’ll read about a theory that the centurion who’s “boy” Jesus healed was really the centurion’s lover. Whether or not this is the case, Jesus certainly never condemned homosexuality. He did, however, roundly condemn those who would judge others. If you really are a Christian, then I recommend that you reread the gospels and ask yourself if you really think that Jesus was the kind of guy who would have been handing out rocks at the stoning of a homosexual. Then ask yourself how “Christ-like” it is to vote for an amendment that would deny homosexuals equal rights. ---
**Author:** ![prisoner6655321](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f8ce5/32.png) [@prisoner6655321](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/prisoner6655321)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663/200 "2004-12-30T23:34:34Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > You spend an entire thread attacking the dignity of gay people, attacking our relationships, calling us a threat to marriage, and then you expect us not to think you’re continuing your heartless attacks on our humanity when you refer to the “abuse of marriage”? Well, it was in a paragraph with, in fact immediately AFTER the sentence “I agree with the goals of SSM. That you should be allowed to visit in the hospital, should be allowed to be named in the will, and know where your loved one is buried.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexual-marriage-why-osc-is-against-it/281663.md?page=11)