# Homosexuality, a crime ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 29, 2000, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687 "2000-02-29T00:00:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2000, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687/261 "2000-03-05T23:45:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by ORION\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*ORION: > **My opinion comes from my heart and my mind.** Wow. I’ve heard of having your head up your ass before, but your heart too?! That’s got to hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2000, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687/262 "2000-03-05T23:53:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by David B: > \*\*[Moderator Hat: ON AGAIN] > > Orion, what part of only quoting that which is necessary don’t you understand? > [Moderator Hat: OFF]\*\* David: My bet is that he understood nothing of it, just like he probably understands nothing else in the English language (or any other language, for that matter). Yo! Starboy! I come from Western Europe and well before I reached the advanced age of 26, I had already learned to communicate in English and also how to use grammar, spelling, cites, and even Logic in my arguments. Pray tell, WTF stopped you? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2000, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687/263 "2000-03-06T00:10:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Polycarp: > \*\*One of the tenets of the Mormon church is that the current President of the Twelve Apostles speaks with authority, effectively in the Voice of God, when he makes a public pronouncement. You may find the analogy to papal infallibility helpful. Although a given Pope or Mormon Prophet may be a blooming idiot who cannot reliably add three and three twice in a row (pardon the exaggeration, Mormons and Catholics!), when he speaks with the authority of the Church behind him, the Holy Spirit intervenes to assure that he will not lead the church astray. > > [snip] > > Flinx and Monty, please correct any imprecisions I may have made in posting the doctrine in question.\*\* Well, Poly; since you ask. 😉 The President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is not the President of the Church. That honour [\<===Starboy: note the European usage here and also the coherent sentences] goes to the President of the High Priesthood of the Church. Quick organizational overview of the LDS is: Top=President of the Church and his two counselors constitute The First Presidency (TFP is how it’s usually abbreviated); Quorum of Twelve Apostles comes next below them; Quorom of Seventy next; Stake Presidents next; and then Ward Bishops. Flinx can fill out the rest. As to the comparison of the TFP’s proclamations being analogous to the papal _ex cathedra_, you’re spot on. Cheers! -Chip ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2000, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687/264 "2000-03-06T00:17:00Z")
> [@](#): > > My personal take on this is, while I have absolutely no desire to bring more grief on the family, as Monty has urged, if publicizing his situation and suicide brings about a state of affairs that prevents even one recurrence of such a suicide, it would be worth the additional grief, etc. I would hope the family would see it that way, much as the Shepards are using Matthew’s death to expand people’s awareness of what he went through in life and the causes behind his death. Lest anyone jump all over Polycarp for this statement thinking he implied that I urged bringin grief on the man’s family: **that is not what Poly said**! Polycarp is recognizing my call for honouring the dead man’s family’s wish to not use that suicide as part of a political agenda. I say this because one prolific poster in this thread (starboy) has a demonstrated inability to read and comprehend even the most basic English expressions. Thanks Poly. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2000, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687/265 "2000-03-06T00:26:00Z")
Since it’s readily evident that the OP of this thread is naught but a troll, I’d rather ask someone else the following question. Otto: I’m seriously not asking this to be funny, a pundit, rude, mean, to belittle the current SSM controvery or anything of that like. I am now genuinely curious about this. Since sexual orientation is not chosen, but inherent, one would have to agree that bisexuality is also a sexual orientation, distinct from both homosexuality and heterosexuality, wouldn’t one? Given that, why not also advocate for marriage rights for bisexuals to marry one member of each gender? Heck, perhaps this query alone could launch this thread into something resembling a SDMB discussion! ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2000, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687/266 "2000-03-06T00:41:00Z")
Which leads to the next obvious question, which is: Why not let polyamorous people marry as many others as they please, and not restrict them to one spouse? ---
**Author:** ![Nu\_Vo\_Da\_Da](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/97f17d/32.png) [@Nu\_Vo\_Da\_Da](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nu_Vo_Da_Da)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2000, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687/267 "2000-03-06T00:45:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Since sexual orientation is not chosen, but inherent, one would have to agree that bisexuality is also a sexual orientation, distinct from both homosexuality and heterosexuality, wouldn’t one? Given that, why not also advocate for marriage rights for bisexuals to marry one member of each gender? Not necessarily Monty. One way of visualizing sexual orientation is to view it as a bell curve. On the one end you have people who are straight, on the other you have people who are gay. Needless to say both these groups are pretty small. In the middle are people who are bi, everyone else falls somewhere along the curve. Now in a society that really doesn’t approve too highly of homosexuality, more people will act more upon their heterosexual feelings than their homosexual ones. In other words, the dividing point where people consider themselves homosexual changes with regards to the culture. Essentialy in response to the question(now that I’m finaly getting to it) people who are Bi simply fall somewhere around the center of the curve(It doesn’t necessarily have to be a strict bell curve), they aren’t a separate preference. To finish it off, their existence isn’t necessarily justification for polygamous marriages, but they should be allowed to marry with whomever(of whatever gender) they fall in love. * * * Still later, Gerald did a terrible thing to Elsie with a saucepan. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2000, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687/268 "2000-03-06T01:20:00Z")
Nu: Interesting response, yet that’s not completely answering the question I asked, IMHO. You see, a polygomous marriage in the “traditional” sense of it is a marriage in which the husband has more than one wife. The wives are not married to each other. Now in the bisexual fantasy someone mentioned earlier in this thread, wouldn’t that be “marrying all three to each other?” Man, this is getting complicated! ---
**Author:** ![Nu\_Vo\_Da\_Da](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/97f17d/32.png) [@Nu\_Vo\_Da\_Da](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nu_Vo_Da_Da)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2000, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687/269 "2000-03-06T01:27:00Z")
As far as I can tell marriage is an endorsement of a pair bond-something that human beings naturally tend to form. This could be a bond between a man and a woman, a man and a man, or a woman and a woman. I honestly don’t see that marriage could be applied to more that 2 people- even polygamous marriages as you said tend towards the man-marries-woman-man-marries-another-woman pattern which is basically the same thing doubled. If there are cases of true three-part bonds then I’ve never heard of them(not that that invalidates the idea or anything, and if they do exist I am interested in hearing about it…) The only problem that I can see with polygamous marriages is that it tends to reduce down to one person married to two+ people at the same time. If it was truly a three part marriage then I would have no problem with it at all-but I would like to see some evidence of that sort of thing occurring. ---
**Author:** ![Flinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Flinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flinx)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2000, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687/270 "2000-03-06T01:45:00Z")
Otto wrote: > [@](#): > > If I’m free to live with a man and we are free to call ourselves a family, which you seem to accept, then is this not just as much a “distortion”? Yet you grant me that right. Where’s the consistency? Society doesn’t endorse it. That’s the difference. On the subject of LDS prophets, they aren’t infallible. They’re just as human as the rest of us. I recommend checking out the link I gave to Weirddave in the thread, **“Question for mormens (and catholics too, maybe)”** in Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2000, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687/271 "2000-03-06T02:23:00Z")
Speaking as a bi-sexual, I find that the current political and religious outlook does not bode well for our marriage rights. This means that we have to settle for cheap, tawdry sex. With twice as many people as you. Damn, life can be hard, sometimes. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2000, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687/272 "2000-03-06T04:30:00Z")
Nu: Discovery Channel (I think 'twas) recently aired a documentary on a tribe in the Amazon region. The title of the show was “The Marrying Tribe.” Each man in the tribe had more than one wife and each woman in the tribe had more than one husband. Now that had to be complicated! ---
**Author:** ![Nu\_Vo\_Da\_Da](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/97f17d/32.png) [@Nu\_Vo\_Da\_Da](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nu_Vo_Da_Da)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2000, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687/273 "2000-03-06T05:03:00Z")
In this tribe, was it structured such that there were separate clusters of married couples? (the smallest, I suppose, would have to be groupings of 4) Or was the structure such that the entire tribe was intermarried? (more of a communal structure?) Either way it’s an interesting group, but I suspect that it still would end up displaying the “favorite wife” syndrome(as often occurred in harems and patriarchal polygamous relationships). ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2000, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687/274 "2000-03-06T07:41:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Since sexual orientation is not chosen, but inherent, one would have to agree that bisexuality is also a sexual orientation, distinct from both homosexuality and heterosexuality, wouldn’t one? Given that, why not also advocate for marriage rights for bisexuals to marry one member of each gender? The only real qualm I have about poly marriages is that currently legal rights are conferred on spouses as a result of the marriage. If Person A has spouse B and spouse C, then the rights of B and C are going to be in conflict, as are the rights of A and B and A and C. For example, marital property. If A marries B and C then both B and C have claims on A’s property. If B then divorces A the law states what property of A’s B is entitled to, except that C is entitled to a share of the same property. The same possible results occur even if A, B and C are all intermarried to each other. Any structure for poly marriages I can come up with is going to result in someone’s rights being violated. From a philosophical standpoint I have no problem whatsoever with poly marriages, but from a legal standpoint I don’t know if it’s possible for all parties’ rights to be protected. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2000, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687/275 "2000-03-06T07:45:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Society doesn’t endorse it. That’s the difference. Since when does God rely on what society thinks to decide what is holy and righteous and what is not? If it’s a sin, then it’s a sin, regardless of what any society endorses, and if you want to legislate against sin then you can’t logically be in favor of decriminalizing some sins. But in another thread you indicated you plan to withdraw from attempts to impose your moral and religious views on others, so this question is moot. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2000, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687/276 "2000-03-06T14:47:00Z")
> [@](#): > > **Tracer:** Polycarp wrote: > > quote: > “When the night has been too lonely, and the road has been too long, and you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong…” > > Darn it, MultiFish, now you’ve got me curious. I think I recognize those lyrics from somewhere, but I just can’t place the song. What’s it from? > > **Flinx** : Tracer, it’s from “The Rose.” I think Bette Midler sang it. And when I quoted it, I had not realized the massive irony of God’s giving the particular love that works for him to Flinx. Hint: what’s orangecakes’ real name? 🙂 John Corrado, shall we add this to the “metaphor? what metaphor?” list? Otto said: > [@](#): > > From a philosophical standpoint I have no problem whatsoever with poly marriages… Glad to hear it! So is my wife! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2000, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687/277 "2000-03-06T14:58:00Z")
Poly, You’re just full of irony! Come on over and do my ironing… ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2000, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687/278 "2000-03-06T15:21:00Z")
Wha? Who? Wha? Sheesh, I miss one day of work, and look what I come in to on Monday morning! {groan} Gimmie the rest of the day to catch up, eh? Esprix * * * [Ask the Gay Guy!](http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001376.html) ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2000, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687/279 "2000-03-07T06:12:00Z")
Hands up, who knew Polycarp was going to make some weak-ass pun on my use of “poly”? :::raising hand::: ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2000, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687/280 "2000-03-07T06:28:00Z")
Otto: 😛 In all seriousness, while I do not agree with it, the “slippery slope” argument does bear dealing with. While the vast majority of people are interested in a traditional male-female pair bond, and we have brought into the picture the fact that a large portion of about 10% of people are interested in a same-sex pair-bond, what about those whose sexuality calls for something other than a pair bond? Are they the next minority to be dealt with? Are we going to say, pick one and stick with him/her? Or what? If there is even one fully functional hermaphrodite, what is his/her moral choice supposed to be? What about what slythe has brought up regarding bisexuality? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-a-crime/17687.md?page=15)