# Homosexuality and religion (prop 8)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [November 13, 2008, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449 "2008-11-13T00:57:06Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2008, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449/1 "2008-11-13T00:57:06Z")
A GQ question with an answer that will probably land here anyway so I will just start here.
Several of the yes on 8 crowd I have crossed paths with lately feel that homosexuality is a choice therefore does not deserve any kind of protected status. However despite the common path to follow the religion of ones parents/family we are free to pursue other religions almost without question.
I as an athiest could wander into most any church and eventually be accepted as part of the group.
Even if homosexuality were a choice, how in the eyes of religious folk does one justify their choice of religion being protected if choice of sexual orientation is not. If anything I would tend to think that such a train of thought would lead to greater protection of homosexuality than religion.
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### Author:  [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2008, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449/2 "2008-11-13T00:58:59Z")
Presumably, some of these people _don’t_ think arbitrary religious choice should be protected. (But I suppose the mainstream Yes voters aren’t that loopy)
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### Author:  [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2008, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449/3 "2008-11-13T04:30:52Z")
There are people who don’t value “choice” in any context. For them, everything is either mandatory or prohibited.
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### Author:  [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2008, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449/4 "2008-11-13T05:03:24Z")
> [@drachillix](#):
>
> Even if homosexuality were a choice, how in the eyes of religious folk does one justify their choice of religion being protected if choice of sexual orientation is not.
Excellent question, **drachillix**. I would think that the choice of who to love and how was at least as important as the choice of which deity to worship.
I wonder if anyone has ever argued this in court?
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2008, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449/5 "2008-11-13T05:04:07Z")
Well, religion is a choice that’s constitutionally protected. But more generally, people who are opposed to extending rights to gays don’t think that just because they think being gay is a choice. They think that being gay is a wrong or immoral choice, and that increased acceptance of homsexuality is dangerous or detrimental to society.
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### Author:  [@Punintentional](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punintentional)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2008, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449/6 "2008-11-13T06:30:12Z")
And perhaps they didn’t choose their god, they just saw the light, or something?
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### Author:  [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2008, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449/7 "2008-11-13T11:43:21Z")
You don’t sit down, right up the pros and cons of Muhammed v Buddha, and pick one.
It’s in your heart, and soul, and stuff.
On the other hand, many of them see homosexuality as being like refusing to eat brocalli, and insisting on cabbage.
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### Author:  [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2008, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449/8 "2008-11-13T11:58:58Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#):
>
> Presumably, some of these people don’t think arbitrary religious choice should be protected. (But I suppose the mainstream Yes voters aren’t that loopy)
They don’t; they only think _their_ religion should be protected. Religious freedom for those religions which support same-sex marriage is a non-issue to them, despite the fact that “religious freedom” was actually a rallying cry for Prop 8. But don’t expect consistency or rationality from religion, anyway; you’re bound to be disappointed.
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### Author:  [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2008, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449/9 "2008-11-13T12:03:28Z")
:smack:That should be “write” to “right”
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### Author:  [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2008, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449/10 "2008-11-13T12:34:40Z")
And, for that matter, “broccoli”.
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### Author:  [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2008, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449/11 "2008-11-13T13:21:00Z")
> [@drachillix](#):
>
> Several of the yes on 8 crowd I have crossed paths with lately feel that homosexuality is a choice therefore does not deserve any kind of protected status.
I know disagreeing with you is not answering the question, but in my experience, this is becoming an increasingly _rare_ opinion.
Most of the intolerants that I’ve spoken to, now accept that a person can be predisposed towards homosexuality. So homosexuality is not a choice, but having sex with the same gender is.
The same as with paedophiles – no-one would _choose_ to be a paedophile; there must be genetic and environmental causes. But that doesn’t mean paedophiles shouldn’t fight against their desires.
In answer to the OP though, intolerance of homosexuality requires a fair dose of hypocracy and ignorance. Very rarely does anyone use a philosophical, moral or sociological argument for banning homosexual marriage, and when they do their arguments are very obviously irrational.
Ultimately, it’s a case of “The Book says it’s wrong, I _feel_ as though it’s wrong, so it’s wrong”.
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### Author:  [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2008, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449/12 "2008-11-13T13:29:29Z")
> [@Mijin](#):
>
> Very rarely does anyone use a philosophical, moral or sociological argument for banning homosexual marriage
(missed the edit window)
Actually I take this part of my post back. They _do_ use arguments, it’s just that the arguments are an attempt to rationalise the way they already feel, and hence are usually pretty poor arguments.
The opinion comes first, and the argument second.
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### Author:  [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2008, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449/13 "2008-11-13T13:45:03Z")
It is a little ironic that the Bible verses cited in an anti-homosexual context (I COR 6:9-10) is part of a chapter that essentially seems to be saying to leave judging of these things to the diety not to the courts.
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### Author:  [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2008, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449/14 "2008-11-13T14:34:08Z")
I can provide an anecdote. My grandmother is a Baptist. The other day we were talking on the phone and apropos of nothing, she said, “Well, there were some unhappy people in California the other day, and I’m glad they were unhappy!” I said, “Why would you be glad? They weren’t hurting anybody”, and she spat, “It’s an _abomination_! Those _queers_ think they can…” and she just went on a rant. And by her use of the word “abomination”, I understood that she feels it her Christian duty to put a stop to it, although it doesn’t affect her in the least. It was shocking to hear all this hatred coming out so suddenly, although we’ve had this conversation before and both know where we stand. It made me realize once and for all that nothing will ever change her mind. I think there are a lot of people like her that will have to die before this can pass. There’s no use in talking about it.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2008, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449/15 "2008-11-13T14:52:48Z")
> [@Laudenum](#):
>
> On the other hand, many of them see homosexuality as being like refusing to eat brocalli, and insisting on cabbage.
I believe the proper analogy is oysters vs snails.
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### Author:  [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2008, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449/16 "2008-11-13T15:02:27Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#):
>
> It is a little ironic that the Bible verses cited in an anti-homosexual context (I COR 6:9-10) is part of a chapter that essentially seems to be saying to leave judging of these things to the diety not to the courts.
Well, to be fair to those who base their political votes on what the Bible says, there are a number of other passages in there that seem to speak against homosexuality, and another handful of passages that affirm male-female relationships as the norm. But your point is still valid.
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### Author:  [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2008, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449/17 "2008-11-13T15:24:33Z")
> [@drachillix](#):
>
> Even if homosexuality were a choice, how in the eyes of religious folk does one justify their choice of religion being protected if choice of sexual orientation is not. If anything I would tend to think that such a train of thought would lead to greater protection of homosexuality than religion.
Are there any significant religious groups that don’t want choice of sexual orientation protected? As I’ve established (see thread below) the major religious groups worked overtime to make homosexuality legal, at the same time that some secular groups worked overtime to keep it illegal. As a result, homosexuals now have the right to have sex with who and when they wish, subject to the same restrictions as heterosexuals. (i.e. partners must consent, no children having sex with adults, not in public, and so forth.)
> **[Why blame religion for Alan Turing's prosecution?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=476309)**
>
> Alan Turing was a British scientist who committed suicide in 1954 after being convicted of homosexual acts. In The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins lists this in his chapter on bad things that results from religion. As usual, he doesn’t offer any...
Prop 8 was about state-recognized gay marriage, or in other words about the government giving the same recognition of married status to homosexual couples as to heterosexual couples. Some people view that as a legitimate case of protection, others view it as changing the definition of marriage.
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449/18 "2008-11-13T16:36:31Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#):
>
> Are there any significant religious groups that don’t want choice of sexual orientation protected?
Well, Richard Land, who was at that time, at least, President of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, said of the Lawrence v Texas decision (which said that anti-sodomy laws were unconstitutional):
[ ](https://www.baptistpress.com/wp-content/uploads/images/IMG20038123724HI.jpg)
> [@](#):
>
> This decision once again focuses attention on the desperate and immediate need for the Federal Marriage Amendment in order to keep the courts from forcing gay ‘marriage’ on the public the same way it is forcing the legalization of homosexual behavior on an unwilling public…[the decision is] wrong in result and in argumentation. Perhaps the argumentation will be even more dangerous than the result in this case.
The Southern Baptist Convention is the second largest single denomination in the country.
The president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops said, regarding the decision:
> **[Conference President Criticizes Supreme Court Decision](https://www.glapn.org/sodomylaws/lawrence/lwnews090.htm)**
> [@](#):
>
> In its decision, Lawrence vs. Texas, the Supreme Court has chosen to view homosexual behavior between consenting adults as a matter of privacy.
>
> However, human sexuality cannot be viewed this way. Sexual activity has profound social consequences which are not limited to those immediately engaged in sexual acts. For this reason, the larger society has always shown a concern about what is and is not acceptable in sexual behavior between individuals. The very fact that this case came before the Supreme Court is evidence of that concern.
>
> The Catholic Church teaches, in agreement with other faith traditions and with what were once the norms generally accepted by society, that sexual activity belongs to the marital relationship between one man and one woman in fidelity to each other. This relationship is the basis of the family which is the basic unit of society. Respect for the purpose of human sexuality and the family needs to be reaffirmed in our society; and anything which reduces respect for them—such as yesterday’s Supreme Court decision—is to be deplored.
The Catholic Church is the largest denomination in the United States.
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### Author:  [@diggleblop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/diggleblop)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2008, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449/19 "2008-11-13T17:32:42Z")
Actually, Jesus said, “the only way to the Father is but through me.” Therefore, Christianity is the only religion according to a lot of people.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-religion-prop-8/472449/20 "2008-11-13T18:34:47Z")
This is nothing new. Prostitution is a choice, but I suspect many more people think prostitution should be illegal than who think gays should not be legally allowed to call their unions “marriage”.
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