# Homosexuality and the APA **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 4, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-apa/302427 "2005-05-04T19:16:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-apa/302427/1 "2005-05-04T19:16:05Z")
In 1973, the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from its list of mental disorders. When did it first go on the list? ---
**Author:** ![cher3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@cher3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cher3)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-apa/302427/2 "2005-05-04T19:23:20Z")
It was probably on “the list” from the beginnings of professional psychiatry, but [this article](http://www.narth.com/docs/annals.html) suggests it was in the DSM from its first or second editionl. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-apa/302427/3 "2005-05-04T19:40:28Z")
[This site](http://www.mhsource.com/expert/exp1052101c.html) says that the first DSM (oddly enough referred to now as DSM-I) listed homosexuality as a sexual deviation. The DSM-I was created, according to [this site](http://www.arches.uga.edu/~parrott/assessment.html) in 1952. The DSM-I was an adaptation of the ICD-6, see [this site](http://www.arches.uga.edu/~kadi/The_Development_of_the_DSM.html). The ICD-6, [from this site](http://www.wolfbane.com/icd/icd6h.htm), lists 320.6 sexual deviation, but I can’t find out whether that included homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![urban\_autist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@urban\_autist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urban_autist)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-apa/302427/4 "2005-05-04T21:05:35Z")
I wonder what their definition of mental disorder is? I don’t think anyone would argue that homosexuality is abnormal behavior. But then again so is veganism. hmmm. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-apa/302427/5 "2005-05-04T22:23:30Z")
> [@urban\_autist](#): > > I wonder what their definition of mental disorder is? I believe it’s this: > [@](#): > > A clinically significant behavioral or psychological syndrome or pattern that occurs in an individual and that is associated with present distress (e.g., a painful symptom) or disability (i.e., impairment in one or more important areas of functioning) or with a significantly increased risk of suffering death, pain, disability, or an important loss of freedom. In addition, this syndrome or pattern must not be merely an expectable and culturally sanctioned response to a particular event, for example, the death of a loved one. Whatever its original cause, it must currently be considered a manifestation of a behavioral, psychological, or biological dysfunction in the individual. Neither deviant behavior (e.g., political, religious, or sexual) nor conflicts that are primarily between the individual and society are mental disorders unless the deviance or conflict is a symptom of a dysfunction in the individual, as described above. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-apa/302427/6 "2005-05-04T22:40:04Z")
Read [this](http://www.uno.edu/~asoble/pages/dsmiv.htm). ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2005, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-apa/302427/7 "2005-05-04T22:42:39Z")
> [@ouryL](#): > > Read [this](http://www.uno.edu/~asoble/pages/dsmiv.htm). Clear as mud. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-apa/302427/8 "2005-05-05T05:53:18Z")
Transgenderism is listed in the DSM using the term “Gender Identity Disorder” (GID). This is a term that medicalizes what is, after all, our entire life. Should we lobby to have it removed as was done for gayness? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-apa/302427/9 "2005-05-05T06:03:32Z")
Is GID decribed (to put the question out at the extreme for clarity) as the condition that prompts one to seek surgery? Or as a condition that exists after surgery? If the former, why would it not be a disorder? The remedy may be surgical (and psychological), but the surgery and counseling are certainly intended to alleviate a situation that interferes with one’s life. If GID refers to a person who has successfully undergone surgery and counseling, then I could see a reason to remove it from the DSM-V. ---
**Author:** ![Ragiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6de8d8/32.png) [@Ragiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ragiel)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-apa/302427/10 "2005-05-05T12:10:22Z")
Under the definition of “disorder” (already cited above, thanks!) gender identity issues would be called disorders only if the person is VERY unhappy with them. Or if the condition led to behavior that got them thrown in jail or fired from jobs they wanted to keep, etc. Seeking surgery, counseling, or support groups would all be considered appropriate efforts to live with a congenital condition, therefore healthy. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-apa/302427/11 "2005-05-05T12:27:38Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Transgenderism is listed in the DSM using the term “Gender Identity Disorder” (GID). This is a term that medicalizes what is, after all, our entire life. Should we lobby to have it removed as was done for gayness? I’ve actually wondered about that from time to time. I would have imagined there was something of a “party line” 🙂 and you would already know how your cohorts feel on the subject but I guess that’s not true. I’m definitely sympathetic to the concern - I definitely resent the pathologizing of gayness. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-apa/302427/12 "2005-05-05T12:42:02Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Transgenderism is listed in the DSM using the term “Gender Identity Disorder” (GID). This is a term that medicalizes what is, after all, our entire life. Yes, well… do you deny that it is a disorder? I think it’s pretty clear that it is: the brain doesn’t fit the body. There is a problem that needs to be corrected, or the patient will continue suffering. I don’t think I’ve even heard any of the transgendereds here or elsewhere object to it being called a disorder. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2005, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-apa/302427/13 "2005-05-05T23:43:28Z")
“Party line”? :rolleyes: Jeez… No, TGs aren’t a monolith (generalize humans much?), and I’ve heard both sides of the debate within the community. On the one hand, we don’t want our entire identity to be seen as a mental illness, therefore we are all loonies; on the other hand, maybe we would like to qualify for assistance in getting treatment. I never said I thought there were easy answers to this. I’m working on understanding both points of view. Gender politics can often be an area of intensely opinionated passions. I decided to stay calm when there’s more than one point of view being debated, and gather knowledge to be able to figure out what I think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-apa/302427/14 "2005-05-06T05:49:32Z")
I see it as completely clear: there is a problem, treatment is needed. If nothing is wrong, no treatment is needed. If something is wrong, treatment is needed. Can’t have it both ways. Nobody’s claiming (to my knowledge) that transgendereds are perfectly created and totally healthy, mind and body united in a glorious whole. Quite the opposite: _everyone_ agrees that _something_ is wrong, although there are some toadbrains who don’t agree with the rest of us about what that is. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-apa/302427/15 "2005-05-06T06:05:48Z")
Johanna, do you have some sort of problem with me? I can’t think of anything I’ve done to upset you, and this is the second time you’ve decided to get pissed at some nonsensical interpretation of something I’ve said. I really don’t see why rolleyes - in GQ no less - was necessary here. I also didn’t imply that TGs are monolithic in any sense - implying that there could be some sort of prevailing sentiment about something is not the same as lumping you all together. If I said that most gay people vote democrat, is that somehow devaluing gay people as a whole? If your finding prejudice towards transgendered people in my posts, you’re looking way too hard for it. Frankly, from what you’ve said in other threads, I probably have more transgendered friends than you do; I’m certainly not naïve about the issue. Please don’t look for covert insults in everything I say. I don’t appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-apa/302427/16 "2005-05-06T12:51:54Z")
No, **Excalibre** , I don’t have a problem with you, I like you, we’re friends, remember? I missed seeing the smiley you put next to your little “party line” joke, because I read it before the page finished loading and the smiley hadn’t appeared yet. (I guess I read in a hurry). Just a little misunderstanding. I don’t have a problem with you, I do, however, have a problem with MY ENTIRE FUCKING SORRY EXISTENCE and sometimes I dump on innocent people. I’m sorry.