# Homosexuality and the Bible **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2003, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527 "2003-06-04T06:17:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/35a633/32.png) [@Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susma_Rio_Sep)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/121 "2003-06-13T06:57:14Z")
Elbal says: “We are ALL sinners, and the only way we can get to heaven is to believe Jesus is our Savior. If we don’t we’re sent to hell. It’s not all just about gayness and sex.” Dear Elbal: May I just ask you for a list of just ten actions whereby people are sinners; or if you prefer, just ten kinds of people who are sinners; and brief reasons why. I am personally interested in this issue because I want to see where I stand in your estimation. Susma Rio Sep ---
**Author:** ![Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/35a633/32.png) [@Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susma_Rio_Sep)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/122 "2003-06-13T07:07:30Z")
Gobear says: > [@](#): > > Right now, it’s 1:08 am, and my partner wants me to come to bed, not because we’re horny, because we are both way too tired. He wants me beside him because he sleeps better when I’m next to him. He loves me and I love him. We cuddle on the couch and watch “Sex and the City” while we sip Merlot spritzers. We go to the theater; we play with our cats, we shop, we cook, we pay bills. We have a life together. > > If you could know some of the happiness we have, then you might find other, worthier causes to pursue. Dear Gobear: I hope you don’t get me wrongly. You and your partner are within your perfect right to live together in your own way and be happy with each other; which might not be said of some heterosexual couples. May I bring your attention to the plight of homeless children. I myself have two kids with my wife, which I think in all modesty I have brought up to be good members of society; so I guess I have done and am still doing my duty of contributing to the conservation of the human species. Would you consider adopting some orphaned child to bring up for his own sake and for the sake of society? This request is also addressed to happy heterosexual couples who are without children by choice. OK, some people will call me a self-righteous pri\*. I will consider that the professional risk of a articulate self-appointed spokesman of concern for fellow humans who are not as privilegedly situated as I suspect most if not all dopers are. Susma Rio Sep ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/123 "2003-06-13T07:39:09Z")
What does Judaism think about lesbianism? ---
**Author:** ![Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/35a633/32.png) [@Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susma_Rio_Sep)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/124 "2003-06-13T09:54:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*What does Judaism think about lesbianism? \*\* I will put my neck out and say that it’s an abomination, from my knowledge of abominations in the Old Testament. But I personally have nothing against a woman having libidinous actions with another woman. Have you read the earlier posts in this thread? There seems to be some consensus that in Judaism man and wife can do anal sex, but not two guys. What kind of sex would two women have with each other? I guess any way they can manage with their bodies and bodily parts and cavities or openings. Don’t get me wrong. Again I have nothing against lesbians and lesbianism. I was just recalling my impression of what I used to read of abominations in the Old Testament. No, I am not an expert of Old Testament abominations. Why then do I talk about lesbianism as abominated in the Old Testament. My impression only, spontaneous. Others here will give us the more dependable data. Men making love with men, women making love with women, men and women making love heterosexually, the more the permutations, it seems the better the sexuality of mankind. Here, I will put my neck out again: certainly this time I am right, bestiality is definitely tabooed in the Old Testament. No? There are circumstances when it can be all right? What an ignoramus I am? Would homosexuality and lesbianism spell the end of mankind? I don’t think so. There will be always men and women who just want to have babies; they are so cute and a challenge to bring up. Susma Rio Sep ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/125 "2003-06-13T12:04:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Would you consider adopting some orphaned child to bring up for his own sake and for the sake of society? This request is also addressed to happy heterosexual couples who are without children by choice. Possibly, in a few years. Right now we don’t have the time or the financial resources to raise a child. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/126 "2003-06-13T16:29:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\* > > Me, I want to my spend my _apres-vie_ where the gin is cold and the jazz is hot. I want to hang out with the great gay (and therefore damned by your standards) artists, writers, and teachers. \*\* Clarification: Not my standards, God’s. I don’t have the authority to damn anyone, I’m simply agreeing with what He says about it. No, I don’t wish to get into arguments of interpretation. I’m well aware where that would go and we’ve been there, done that. I read it, it’s clear to me. So I’m simply objecting to your assertion that they are “my standards.” Course, YMMV, as I’m sure it does. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/127 "2003-06-13T16:46:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*Clarification: Not my standards, God’s. I don’t have the authority to damn anyone, I’m simply agreeing with what He says about it. No, I don’t wish to get into arguments of interpretation. I’m well aware where that would go and we’ve been there, done that. I read it, it’s clear to me. So I’m simply objecting to your assertion that they are “my standards.” Course, YMMV, as I’m sure it does. \*\* And how do you know what “God’s standards” are? A collection of books written 2-3,000 years ago by humans? Wherever did you get the idea that this was the word of God? The Koran says that the Bible contains errors and the Koran is the perfect word of God as dictated to the prophet Mohammed. How do I know this? The Koran says so. How do you respond to the fact that God says your Bible is filled with errors and blasphemies? ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/128 "2003-06-13T17:14:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes \* > I’ve read some Jewish commentary (sorry, no cite) which says that ancient Jews did not particularly take notice of or condemn men who lived together as couples, so long as they were reasonably discrete and monogomous. They only had a problem when it was either adulterous or predatory (both of which were condemned when practiced by heteros as well). This is absurd. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > Ultra-Orthodox Jews are ©Hasidic Some, not all. Your very own lovable huggable IzzyR would be an example of a non-Hasidic ultra-Orthodox Jew. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > As far as I know, Orthodox Jews believe the use of contraception is all right. Not necessarily. Heavily dependant on which type. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > What does Judaism think about lesbianism? Not a sin per se, but something to be discouraged. BTW, the issue of hetero-sexual anal sex is not as clear cut as previous posts to this thread would have you believe. It’s OK on an inconsistent basis. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/129 "2003-06-13T17:21:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*And how do you know what “God’s standards” are? A collection of books written 2-3,000 years ago by humans? Wherever did you get the idea that this was the word of God? The Koran says that the Bible contains errors and the Koran is the perfect word of God as dictated to the prophet Mohammed. How do I know this? The Koran says so. How do you respond to the fact that God says your Bible is filled with errors and blasphemies? \*\* :rolleyes: I don’t accept the Koran as the word of God. I suggest you check the link in my sig line as to the validity of the Holy Bible for all the good it will do. Believe what you want, we’ll all find out later whether it’s true or not. [http://www.tmtestimony.org.uk/library/2000\_1.htm](http://www.tmtestimony.org.uk/library/2000_1.htm) [http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/ishmaelIsaac.htm](http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/ishmaelIsaac.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/130 "2003-06-13T17:26:29Z")
**His** -no, it’s what the BIBLE says. The BIBLE is a book. It is not God. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/131 "2003-06-13T17:33:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*:rolleyes: I don’t accept the Koran as the word of God. I suggest you check the link in my sig line as to the validity of the Holy Bible for all the good it will do. Believe what you want, we’ll all find out later whether it’s true or not. > > [http://www.tmtestimony.org.uk/library/2000\_1.htm](http://www.tmtestimony.org.uk/library/2000_1.htm) > > [http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/ishmaelIsaac.htm](http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/ishmaelIsaac.htm) \*\* Your sig link is riddled with factual inaccuracies and baseless assertions. I can just as easily link to pages which “prove” the truth of the Koran. Can you give me an objective, non-faith based argument for accepting the Bible as the word of God? ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/132 "2003-06-13T18:15:19Z")
No, she cannot. Such a thing does not exist! ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/133 "2003-06-13T18:15:22Z")
No, **Diogenes** , she can’t. Can we move on? Pigs can’t sing, after all… Esprix ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2003, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/134 "2003-06-13T19:17:56Z")
Blalron: > [@](#): > > What does Judaism think about lesbianism? Not forbidden as such, but considered “immodest” and therefore discouraged. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/135 "2003-06-14T02:21:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Major Kong \* > \*\*To follow the teachings of the Bible do you have to believe that homosexuality is a sin? I know a person could just reject the verses that are negative towards homosexuality, but I think this leads to path where you can reject anything in the Bible. > \*\* There’s a BIG difference between “follow[ing] the teachings of the Bible” and blindly accepting everything in it. And if this leads to a path where you can “reject anything in the Bible,” then maybe you’ve just taken a giant step toward thinking like an adult. **YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO BELIEVE WHAT MAKES SENSE TO YOU, AND REJECT THAT WHICH DOESN’T.** (Pardon my flaming.) ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/136 "2003-06-14T06:57:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*Clarification: Not my standards, God’s. I don’t have the authority to damn anyone, I’m simply agreeing with what He says about it. \*\* I’m always amazed and bewildered when Christians such as **His4Ever** and others make this type of claim. To me, this statement is the equivilent of saying, _I don’t have to think. I just follow the Bible and everything will work out._ If that’s how you believe, okay. Just remember, historically, the last time that happened, we had war crime trials at Nuremberg for it. ---
**Author:** ![Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/35a633/32.png) [@Susma\_Rio\_Sep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susma_Rio_Sep)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/137 "2003-06-14T07:27:14Z")
Panache says: > [@](#): > > There’s a BIG difference between “follow[ing] the teachings of the Bible” and blindly accepting everything in it. And if this leads to a path where you can “reject anything in the Bible,” then maybe you’ve just taken a giant step toward thinking like an adult. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO BELIEVE WHAT MAKES SENSE TO YOU, AND REJECT THAT WHICH DOESN’T. (Pardon my flaming.) I must commend you for that reservation, Right to Believe. Watch out everyone here, the law might go after you if you practice everything and anything you have a right to believe in or for. Try practicing polygyny because you are following Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and having four wives and innumerable concubines because you are following Mohammed; then you will really get in trouble with the law. Wait till the law has changed or has gone into desuetude as with kissing on a Sunday or such erstwhile perversions. Anyway, to play safe, keep your less conventional games private as away from prying eyes. Do sex in private. Susma Rio Sep ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/138 "2003-06-14T16:04:55Z")
There’s a big difference between belief and practice, **Susma**. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/139 "2003-06-14T16:34:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*Clarification: Not my standards, God’s. I don’t have the authority to damn anyone, I’m simply agreeing with what He says about it. No, I don’t wish to get into arguments of interpretation. I’m well aware where that would go and we’ve been there, done that. I read it, it’s clear to me. So I’m simply objecting to your assertion that they are “my standards.” Course, YMMV, as I’m sure it does. \*\* So in the **His4Ever** school of simple-minded Biblical criticism, metaphorical language is nonexistent and the authors of the Books of the Bible were merely taking dictation from the Almighty. **His4Ever** you would do well to read more, since it’s painfully clear you know nothing of textual criticism or the historical and cultural enviroment in which the books of the bible were written. Urge you to go to your local library and check out _Reading the Bible Again for the First Time_, by Marcus J. Borg. Borg shows how faith in God and reverence for the Bible can be reconciled with contemporary critical thinking. Your constant conflation of the Bible says = God says completely ignores the Bible’s existence as a human product. The Bible is a lens through which one can see the character and will of God. To use a Zen metaphor, the finger is pointing at the moon, but you ignore the moon and believe only in the finger. You observe the letter of the Bible and totally discard the spirit of the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/140 "2003-06-14T17:16:25Z")
::: applauds **gobear** ::: Seriously, **His** , I’ve read the Borg book he recommends, and I’d encourage you to read it as well. Even if you come out of it disagreeing with everything Borg says (quite likely if I know you at all), you’ll at least have a much better understanding of how the critical-study-of-the-Bible school thinks and grasps the Biblical imperatives. The subtitle is worth quoting, too: _Taking the Bible Seriously But Not Literally_. And he – and I – mean just that. And contemplate the last paragraph **gobear** said quite seriously – and then remember II Corinthians 3:6 > [@](#): > > Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527.md?page=8)