# Homosexuality and the Bible **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2003, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527 "2003-06-04T06:17:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/161 "2003-06-16T18:40:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Well, it’s anachronistic to speak of pre-20th people being gay, since the idea of sexual orientation didn’t exist. \*\* Actually, this is in debate by gay historians. Foucalt was the gay historian who argued that point and he still has his followers, although Stephen O Murray, who feels differently, has plenty of followers too. There were people in the middle ages like Giovani Antonio Bazzi who became known as “Il Sodoma” because of his open homosexuality. Rather than rebuke the title, he loved it and signed it on papers and ordered people to use it. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/162 "2003-06-16T21:02:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Why? What difference would his sexual orientation make in his argument? Well, if Poly self-identified as anything but straight, he’s be so mired and steeped in his own sin that he’d do or say anything to justify his sinning. Like, _duh_. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/163 "2003-06-18T23:32:32Z")
After noting the Pit thread **gobear** started about the latest SBC pronouncement, and the number of references to homosexuality and Christianity in other GD threads, I thought maybe this thread deserved to be brought back to the active menu, since it’s only two days since the last post to it, and the topic seems to be stirring more than the usual amount of interest. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2003, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/164 "2003-06-18T23:58:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ava \* > \*\*Actually, this is in debate by gay historians. Foucalt was the gay historian who argued that point and he still has his followers, although Stephen O Murray, who feels differently, has plenty of followers too. There were people in the middle ages like Giovani Antonio Bazzi who became known as “Il Sodoma” because of his open homosexuality. Rather than rebuke the title, he loved it and signed it on papers and ordered people to use it. \*\* I still don’t think people quite grasped it as an innate and static orientation. It was still just regarded as behavior, or, at, best, a _preference_. I don’t think people quite got the idea that someone could be exclusively and _involuntarily_ attracted only his/her own sex, without even the _ability_ to be attracted to the opposite sex. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/165 "2003-06-19T01:27:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*After noting the Pit thread **gobear** started about the latest SBC pronouncement, and the number of references to homosexuality and Christianity in other GD threads, I thought maybe this thread deserved to be brought back to the active menu, since it’s only two days since the last post to it, and the topic seems to be stirring more than the usual amount of interest. \*\* A nitpick. I didn’t start that thread, **Eve** did. But the blame for the direction it has gone should fall on my shoulders. All my fault. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/166 "2003-06-19T01:41:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*After noting the Pit thread **gobear** started about the latest SBC pronouncement, and the number of references to homosexuality and Christianity in other GD threads, I thought maybe this thread deserved to be brought back to the active menu, since it’s only two days since the last post to it, and the topic seems to be stirring more than the usual amount of interest. \*\* Ya know Poly, “bump” has only four keystrokes. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/167 "2003-06-19T02:01:56Z")
My apologies to **gobear** and **Eve** for the misrepresentation, and to **andros** for verbosity – but since Bumping is generally frowned on around here, I wanted to justify my sense that it was the right thing to do with this thread. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/168 "2003-06-19T02:43:33Z")
Oh piffle. It needed to be bumped. I just hope **Nomadic** sees it. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/169 "2003-06-19T03:07:36Z")
**Nomadic One** is not the problem – he’s prepared to debate honestly, and examine the facts surrounding propositions he wants to examine. There are a few others who ought to review it, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/170 "2003-06-19T23:18:24Z")
What exactly is bumping? Putting the thread somewhere else? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/171 "2003-06-19T23:34:41Z")
Bumping is when you post to a thread just to move it back to the top of the thread list. ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2003, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/172 "2003-06-20T07:49:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*I still don’t think people quite grasped it as an innate and static orientation. It was still just regarded as behavior, or, at, best, a _preference_. I don’t think people quite got the idea that someone could be exclusively and _involuntarily_ attracted only his/her own sex, without even the _ability_ to be attracted to the opposite sex. \*\* Well, at least from some of the evidence that I’ve seen they did. My mind has gone totally blank on the names of these two theories. (Social constructionists (?) and \_\_\_\_) I’ll stop by the library tomarrow if I can and try to find more specific quotes and such for you as I am afraid that I’ve forgotten too much of it to be of any more help in discussing what Murray and others like him believe… But anyway, AFAIK, the debate is still going. However, the newer books seem to be geared more towards the “some people did see themselves (or others) as having a natural inclination and defined themselves (or others) by it” which makes me suspect that it is the one most scholars now think is better. ---
**Author:** ![Wake\_up\_call](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dec6dc/32.png) [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2003, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/173 "2003-08-06T13:37:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Iyyob \* > \*\*Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became FOOLS; > 1:27 And the men did the same thing: leaving the NATURAL use of the woman, they burned in their LUST for one another; men commintting SHAMEFUL ACTS with men, and suffering in their own bodies the penalty ( AIDS ) for their ERROR, which is their fitting retirbution. > \*\* [Here](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/06/national/06BISH.html?hp) is the answer to your prayer. As for [your own thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=202599) that you started earlier today, I am glad to see that Gaudere just closed it. Do you get the message? ---
**Author:** ![chuckster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9bd4f/32.png) [@chuckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chuckster)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/174 "2003-08-10T05:52:56Z")
Here is my thought. While you can pick away at individual verses any way you want, the **Totality** of the Bible is against homosexuality. There are absolutely no homosexual protagonists in the Bible. Furthermore, every place homosexuality is mentioned in the Bible is in a negative sense. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/175 "2003-08-10T07:44:22Z")
> [@](#): > > the **Totality** of the Bible is against homosexuality. There are absolutely no homosexual protagonists in the Bible. Furthermore, every place homosexuality is mentioned in the Bible is in a negative sense. It is very nearly as accurate to say that the totality of the Bible is against a man and a woman having sex during her period (there are only two fewer references). I don’t think that there is much doubt that Jewish culture disapproved of male homosexuality or that Paul, who was not keen on sexual expression in any event, looked unfavorably on homesexual expression. The problem is whether those expressions reflect the will of God or demonstrate the culture from which the authors of those passages sprang. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/176 "2003-08-10T13:40:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chuckster \* > \*\*Here is my thought. While you can pick away at individual verses any way you want, the **Totality** of the Bible is against homosexuality. There are absolutely no homosexual protagonists in the Bible. Furthermore, every place homosexuality is mentioned in the Bible is in a negative sense. \*\* First, "homosexuality"is never mentioned in the Bible, so people who say it is, and is condemned, are interpreting and expanding on the words of the Bible to suit their own predilections. Second, **Diogenes** and others have done exegeses of the language used by Paul, and quite simply, it condemns certain things quite vehemently, and they are things which the typical gay man or woman would probably join you and me as denouncing in strong terms, like pandering and contracting for sex with boy-prostitutes forced into that role. The supposed “Christian” press typically begins any report on the Rt. Rev. Gene Robinson with “Gay ‘bishop’ Gene Robinson, who abandoned his wife and children to take a gay lover…” which is flat-out in factual error on several grounds to start with, and shows no grasp of or willingness to understand what motivates a gay person. There is, by the way, a member here who is in precisely Gene Robinson’s shoes, with three exceptions: he isn’t a bishop or any kind of clergy; he and his ex-wife both realized they were gay; and he has not as yet, AFAIK, found a permanent SO. Third, I’d ask you to read I Samuel 20, bringing absolutely no modern condeptions about what it “must have” meant or not meant. Add in II Samuel 1:26 as a codicil. Then tell me what the Biblical definitions of “neighbor” and “one of the least of these my brothers” might be, and who is included or excluded from it. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/177 "2003-08-10T21:09:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chuckster \* > \*\*Here is my thought. While you can pick away at individual verses any way you want, the **Totality** of the Bible is against homosexuality. There are absolutely no homosexual protagonists in the Bible. Furthermore, every place homosexuality is mentioned in the Bible is in a negative sense. \*\* IIRC I can count the number of times the torah even bothers to mention homosexuality on one hand. For centuries, Jewish folklore has held that the greatest sins of Sodom and Gommorah was not homosexuality but selfishness and a lack of hospitality to strangers. While the great scholars (Rashi, Maimonides, etc) all held homosexuality was a sin, they also agreed that the two cities were destroyed for not being their brother’s keeper. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2003, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/178 "2003-08-10T22:46:24Z")
Someone I was talking to pointed out that, while male homosexuality is explicitly forbidden in Leviticus, lesbianism is not. This seems odd, as (for example) both male _and_ female bestiality is explicitly forbidden. What is the explaination for this? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/179 "2003-08-11T00:29:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DocCathode \* > \*\*IIRC I can count the number of times the torah even bothers to mention homosexuality on one hand. > > For centuries, Jewish folklore has held that the greatest sins of Sodom and Gommorah was not homosexuality but selfishness and a lack of hospitality to strangers. While the great scholars (Rashi, Maimonides, etc) all held homosexuality was a sin, they also agreed that the two cities were destroyed for not being their brother’s keeper. \*\* For those who hold to “prove it in Scripture,” Isaiah and Ezekiel are quite explicit that the sin of Sodom was an exclusive focus on personal extravagance and luxury, ignoring God and their responsibility to their fellow man. Sexual license (not homosexual acts) was a part of this self-centeredness. And Jesus himself echoes this when he compares the lakeside cities who would not welcome his disciples with Sodom and Gomorrah – unfavorably. The only other N.T. mention is in Jude, who says they were destroyed for “sexual immorality.” It may be totally unfair of me to say so, but the folks with S.U.V.'s and $200,000 homes who go to church every Sunday but insist on adherence to God’s Law (i.e., their selection of Scriptural sound bites) and refuse to welcome gay people because they’re “unrepentant sinners” may under Scripture be the real Sodomites. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2003, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527/180 "2003-08-11T01:30:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*First, "homosexuality"is never mentioned in the Bible, so people who say it is, and is condemned, are interpreting and expanding on the words of the Bible to suit their own predilections. \*\* That may be true, but salvation and God are both not mentioned in the original language of the Bible. So that’s a weak argument, as some versions do mention homosexuality, while some don’t. Do you then get into the argument of which is the best version, and I think they all are good. So some say male with male, some say homosexual…what’s your defination of male with male? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-bible/179527.md?page=10)