# Homosexuality and the Old Testament **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-old-testament/635023 "2012-09-17T23:42:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-old-testament/635023/41 "2012-11-26T16:58:53Z")
[http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/15/my-take-what-the-bible-really-says-about-homosexuality/](http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/15/my-take-what-the-bible-really-says-about-homosexuality/) **I WIN!** Seriously. This guy’s right. Read it. This actually gives scripture. I didn’t notice anyone in this thread doing that. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-old-testament/635023/42 "2012-11-26T17:09:36Z")
I know for a fact that every point in that article has been brought up and discussed in previous threads here. I imagine the only reason it wasn’t mentioned here is because Diogenes is banned. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-old-testament/635023/43 "2012-11-26T17:23:30Z")
> [@James52637](#): > > This actually gives scripture. I didn’t notice anyone in this thread doing that. See posts 11, 16, and 18. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-old-testament/635023/44 "2012-11-26T17:28:59Z")
That’s talking about textual evidence for a biblical bromance, which while interesting in a fanfiction sort of way is not really relevant to the thread topic. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-old-testament/635023/45 "2012-11-26T17:35:38Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > Which reminds me of the line from _Othello_: “Methinks the lady doth protesteth too much.” Which is to say, what reason would the Torah have to come out so explicitly against homosexual relationships _ **if the practice wasn’t in fact widespread at the time?!** _ [pedantic jackass] You mispelled “Hamlet.” [pedantic jackass] ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-old-testament/635023/46 "2012-11-26T17:55:10Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > That’s talking about textual evidence for a biblical bromance, which while interesting in a fanfiction sort of way is not really relevant to the thread topic. The OP asked if homosex was punished in the days of the OT. The relationship between David and Jonathan was offered as an alleged example of a homosexual relationship that was not punished. It was then pointed out that there is little to no evidence that the David-Jonathan relationship was sexual. So we are left with the other references to homosex in the OT, which mention the subject only to condemn it - there are no references to homosexual behavior in the OT that are either neutral or laudatory. All the examples purported to be such seem to violate the Law of Parsimony - e.g. David and Jonathan, and Ruth and Naomi. IOW, there is no real evidence that homosexuality was treated as neutral, and there are repeated references to the topic where it is made clear that the participants should be executed. So, as far as can be determined from the text of the OT, homosexuality was treated badly. [QUOTE=Noone Special] … what reason would the Torah have to come out so explicitly against homosexual relationships if the practice wasn’t in fact widespread at the time?! [/QUOTE] One possible reason is that it was found among the pagan peoples of the area, and the Torah wanted to emphasize that Jewish people were not to indulge in those practices but to keep themselves distinct. I have no real information, but I doubt if there was an epidemic of people wearing clothes made from two kinds of fabric, but that is condemned as well. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-old-testament/635023/47 "2012-11-26T17:58:35Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > [pedantic jackass] > > You mispelled “Hamlet.” > > [pedantic jackass] [even more pedantic] Also, it’s “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.” [/even more pedantic] ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-old-testament/635023/48 "2012-11-26T18:03:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > One possible reason is that it was found among the pagan peoples of the area, and the Torah wanted to emphasize that Jewish people were not to indulge in those practices but to keep themselves distinct. All of this was argued slightly more adroitly earlier in the thread. Try to keep up. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-old-testament/635023/49 "2012-11-26T18:06:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [even more pedantic] > Also, it’s “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.” > [/even more pedantic] You want to start a pedants’ war with me? Really? Can you think of any other Doper more likely to cheat, betray, and eventually threaten a wedgie? ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-old-testament/635023/50 "2012-11-26T19:01:57Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > [pedantic jackass] > > You mispelled “Hamlet.” > > [pedantic jackass] Yes, I know. Especially since I was already corrected in post #22… 😛 🙂 > [@astorian](#): > > “The lady doth protest too much” is from _ **Hamlet,** _ not _ **Othello.** _ Gertrude says it while watching the play within a play. > > Carry on… That’s what I get for going on memory, on the Dope 😃 ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-old-testament/635023/51 "2012-11-26T19:17:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > See posts 11, 16, and 18. > > Regards, > Shodan _Cough_ Where’s the Chapter, verse, etc.? (Plussssss, none of this matters. God’s not real. 🙂 ) We just need to get people to realize that religion cannot run our country. It’s just… pathetic that there haven’t been groups dedicated to fully separating church and state. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-old-testament/635023/52 "2012-11-26T19:19:36Z")
> [@James52637](#): > > _Cough_ Where’s the Chapter, verse, etc.? > > (Plussssss, none of this matters. God’s not real. 🙂 ) > We just need to get people to realize that religion cannot run our country. It’s just… pathetic that there haven’t been groups dedicated to fully separating church and state. There ARE groups dedicated to fully separating church & state, or at least who consider doing so a priority. But though I’m an atheist and agree with that aim in theory, in practice I cannot countenance denying the religious their voice in public policy. Who am I to stifle them? ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-old-testament/635023/53 "2012-11-26T19:23:51Z")
Someone who hopefully prefers logic over the “ancient” teachings of someone who was obviously on a crazy drug induced trip. (Not being serious about the drug induced trip, just that they were blatantly lying and/or writing a FANTASTIC fiction novel) ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-old-testament/635023/54 "2012-11-26T19:32:51Z")
I have no problem with someone using their own religious dogma to inform their political choices. Just don’t try to bring it into the public sphere. If you want something banned on religious grounds, you’ll need a rational reason as well, and if there’s a rational reason against it, why bother with the religious? ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-old-testament/635023/55 "2012-11-26T19:36:06Z")
That’s basically what I had to say. I must not have worded it well. Thank-you, **Inner Stickler.** ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-old-testament/635023/56 "2012-11-26T20:21:49Z")
> [@James52637](#): > > _Cough_ Where’s the Chapter, verse, etc.? In posts 11, 16, and 18. Read them for yourself. > [@](#): > > (Plussssss, none of this matters. God’s not real. 🙂 ) > We just need to get people to realize that religion cannot run our country. It’s just… pathetic that there haven’t been groups dedicated to fully separating church and state. And what exactly does this have to do with the question of the OP, which was > [@](#): > > did gays back in the Old Testament get mistreated the way they sometimes do in contemporary times? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-old-testament/635023/57 "2012-11-26T20:42:47Z")
> [@James52637](#): > > [http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/15/my-take-what-the-bible-really-says-about-homosexuality/](http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/15/my-take-what-the-bible-really-says-about-homosexuality/) > > **I WIN!** > > Seriously. This guy’s right. Read it. > > This actually gives scripture. I didn’t notice anyone in this thread doing that. Meh. I’m pretty open-minded about what the Bible says regarding homosexuality, but the author of that article is just asserting a lot about how Paul is mistranslated with providing any actual support or evidence for his assertion. ---
**Author:** ![missyzilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a9a28c/32.png) [@missyzilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missyzilly)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-old-testament/635023/58 "2012-12-03T03:12:57Z")
When I see people holding signs that read GOD HATES f–s . It makes me wonder … Why is that the sin people focus on? They do not understand God if they can judge other sinners! God does not hate a person he hates the sin. He loves the gay the drunks the drug users AND EVEN HOES!! A person is not a action . If I sin AND I DO!!! I do not become my sin. So the label that people place on a person does not make any real sense. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-old-testament/635023/59 "2012-12-03T03:43:20Z")
> [@missyzilly](#): > > When I see people holding signs that read GOD HATES f–s . It makes me wonder … Why is that the sin people focus on? First, because they are bigots. And second, because doing so has several “virtues”, from the viewpoint of a religious tyrant. It’s great for witch hunts for example; homosexuals look just like everyone else and you can’t disprove an accusation of homosexuality. It’s useful for inducing guilt, shame and self hatred in homosexuals and bisexuals; that’s useful both in controlling him/her and in satisfying the sadistic impulses common to believers. It’s also useful that it’s something people can’t change and more are always being born, so you don’t risk running out of targets. They are also a minority and historically not organized, which makes them easy targets. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-old-testament/635023.md?page=2)