# Homosexuality and the United Church of Christ **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439 "2012-09-21T22:08:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hottius\_Maximus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hottius\_Maximus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hottius_Maximus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439/1 "2012-09-21T22:08:46Z")
This is actually a side thread that was inspired by my other thread regarding homosexuality and the Old Testament. Years ago I heard a radio talk show where a lesbian minister in the United Church of Christ was saying that the Old Testament prohibitions against homosexuality were actually added in later on, and that God supposedly did not forbid homosexuality. Unfortunately I had to get to work so I didn’t get to hear the minister’s justification for what she said. So if there are any UCC Christians or liberal Christians on this board, I would love to hear from you. How are you able to justify homosexual behavior despite what the Old Testament says about it, and even what St. Paul says about it? FYI I do NOT want this to turn into gay bashing; I am simply curious as to how some Christian Churches can approve something that appears to be expressly forbidden. I look forward to hearing from everybody. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439/2 "2012-09-21T22:10:20Z")
It’s _all_ good, baby. ---
**Author:** ![Weeping\_Wyvern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@Weeping\_Wyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weeping_Wyvern)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439/3 "2012-09-21T23:36:07Z")
Ironically I am a member of the UCC who is very conservative on this matter, so I can’t really answer. ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439/4 "2012-09-22T00:14:32Z")
Here is a list of responses to the various bible verses that seem to denounce homosexuality, and why they don’t actually do so. (This isn’t the best such list I’ve seen, but it’s the first good one I was able to find today on a quick search.) [http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom\_bibl.htm](http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm) (corrected link) ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439/5 "2012-09-22T04:07:25Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > Here is a list of responses to the various bible verses that seem to denounce homosexuality, and why they don’t actually do so. It’s amazing the mental gymnastics the faithful can engage in to make the bible say what they want it to say. Christians abolitionist did the same thing in the 19th century here in the United States. I’d be very curious to learn when these interpretations of the bible started to gain popularity. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439/6 "2012-09-22T05:03:16Z")
> [@Hottius\_Maximus](#): > > … saying that the Old Testament prohibitions against homosexuality were actually added in later on … Later than what? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439/7 "2012-09-22T13:57:22Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Later than what? Probably after shellfish but before tattoos. ---
**Author:** ![Hottius\_Maximus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hottius\_Maximus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hottius_Maximus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439/8 "2012-09-22T15:10:37Z")
> [@Weeping\_Wyvern](#): > > Ironically I am a member of the UCC who is very conservative on this matter, so I can’t really answer. Just out of curiosity, does your congregation welcome homosexuals and lesbians? Has your pastor ever commented about it one way or the other? If you wish to mention this post to your pastor or some friends in your congregation, I would be very interested in hearing from them. ---
**Author:** ![Weeping\_Wyvern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@Weeping\_Wyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weeping_Wyvern)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439/9 "2012-09-22T16:21:43Z")
> [@Hottius\_Maximus](#): > > Just out of curiosity, does your congregation welcome homosexuals and lesbians? Has your pastor ever commented about it one way or the other? My pastor has made a few comments suggesting sympathy with homosexuality, but it’s not a major sermon topic or anything. While I’m horrible at grasping social dynamics, I’m guessing she avoids making a big deal of it so as not to offend the more traditional congregants. ---
**Author:** ![ExcitedIdiot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ea5d25/32.png) [@ExcitedIdiot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExcitedIdiot)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439/10 "2012-09-22T19:02:24Z")
> [@Weeping\_Wyvern](#): > > Ironically I am a member of the UCC who is very conservative on this matter, so I can’t really answer. > **[Irony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony)** > > Irony, in its broadest sense, is the juxtaposition of what appears to be the case on the surface and what is actually the case or to be expected. It typically figures as a rhetorical device and literary technique. In some philosophical contexts, however, it takes on a larger significance as an entire way of life. > Irony has been defined in many different ways, and there is no general agreement about the best way to organize its various types. The nebulous and difficult nature of its definition... ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439/11 "2012-09-22T22:05:15Z")
> [@Hottius\_Maximus](#): > > So if there are any UCC Christians or liberal Christians on this board, I would love to hear from you. How are you able to justify homosexual behavior despite what the Old Testament says about it, and even what St. Paul says about it? FYI I do NOT want this to turn into gay bashing; I am simply curious as to how some Christian Churches can approve something that appears to be expressly forbidden. I look forward to hearing from everybody. Old Testament laws were usurped by New Testament laws: > [@](#): > > Acts 13:39 > by this Jesus everyone who believes is set free from all those sins from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses. > > Romans 2:25-29 > 25Circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law; but if you break the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26So, if those who are uncircumcised keep the requirements of the law, will not their uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27Then those who are physically uncircumcised but keep the law will condemn you that have the written code and circumcision but break the law. 28For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. 29Rather, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart–it is spiritual and not literal. Such a person receives praise not from others but from God. > Romans 8:1-4 > 1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and to deal with sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. > 1 Corinthians 9:19-21 > 19For though I am free with respect to all, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I might win more of them. 20To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) so that I might win those under the law. 21To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law) so that I might win those outside the law. > > Galatians 2:15-16 > 15We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law. And most importantly: > [@](#): > > Ephesians 2:15 > 15He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace, So that takes care of the Old Testament. What about the New Testament? Well, what did Jesus say about it? According to Matt 15:18-20…nothing. Not a goddamn thing. Which leads us to post hoc commentary. Let’s just say that good ol’ St Paul was an asshole with his own axe to grind. But unfortunately, that axe has been distorted through history to man’s own will on top of Paul’s own. For the most part, Paul talks about \*arsenokoitai \*and _malakois_ the poor man’s translation has modernly translated these into “homosexuality” when the truth is that these are better translated as pederasty. Talk to any DSM-IV and you’ll see the HUGE difference between the two. Frankly, most churches tend to take scripture into their own hands. Look at how many Christian denominations let there be female deacons, pastors, etc. thus completely ignoring 1 Corinthians 14:34. Why is that one acceptable to ignore but homosexuality must be cleaved to as though the instructions were perversely more important? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439/12 "2012-09-22T22:15:58Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > It’s amazing the mental gymnastics the faithful can engage in to make the bible say what they want it to say. Christians abolitionist did the same thing in the 19th century here in the United States. I’d be very curious to learn when these interpretations of the bible started to gain popularity. Meh. For many, the Bible isn’t regarded as a lust of propositions each of which must be agreed with. For one thing, it’s very plausible to think that its authors’ various cultural presuppositions shouln’t be understood to constitute valid ethical demands. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439/13 "2012-09-22T22:27:39Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > … > Frankly, most churches tend to take scripture into their own hands. Look at how many Christian denominations let there be female deacons, pastors, etc. thus completely ignoring 1 Corinthians 14:34. Why is that one acceptable to ignore but homosexuality must be cleaved to as though the instructions were perversely more important? It was my admittedly poorly researched impression that denominations with female deacons and pastors, etc. did not proscribe either homosexuality or homosexuals. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439/14 "2012-09-22T22:29:58Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Meh. For many, the Bible isn’t regarded as a lust of propositions each of which must be agreed with. > > For one thing, it’s very plausible to think that its authors’ various cultural presuppositions shouln’t be understood to constitute valid ethical demands. Nice typo. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439/15 "2012-09-22T22:37:08Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Meh. For many, the Bible isn’t regarded as a lust of propositions each of which must be agreed with. > > For one thing, it’s very plausible to think that its authors’ various cultural presuppositions shouln’t be understood to constitute valid ethical demands. I can actually respect those kinds of arguments. I have a hard time respecting arguments that the bible doesn’t say anything negative about homosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2012, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439/16 "2012-09-22T23:47:09Z")
> [@j666](#): > > It was my admittedly poorly researched impression that denominations with female deacons and pastors, etc. did not proscribe either homosexuality or homosexuals. Definitely not so. The Evangelical Presbyterian Church is one counterexample. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439/17 "2012-09-23T12:27:09Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Definitely not so. The Evangelical Presbyterian Church is one counterexample. Also the Assemblies of God and the Foursquare Gospel Church. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439/18 "2012-09-23T12:47:10Z")
I’m UU, and the UUC and UUs share the same sexuality program. There is a large element in the program of “don’t judge others.” And that the people whose business is your sex life is you and your partner(s) (that doesn’t come until they are almost young adults - at twelve you are still teaching them that their parents, teachers, etc. have responsibilities to them). Respect yourself, respect your partner(s) - that is what is taught. And you and your partner(s) define that respect. In the UU training the Bible doesn’t come into it at all, nor God - since about half of UUs are some form of humanist and only a quarter are Christian, it isn’t like what Paul had to say carries a lot of weight. I don’t know if the UUC brings it into their version of the curriculum at all. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439/19 "2012-09-23T13:02:04Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Definitely not so. The Evangelical Presbyterian Church is one counterexample. > [@FriarTed](#): > > Also the Assemblies of God and the Foursquare Gospel Church. Well, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439/20 "2012-09-23T15:53:39Z")
While it is true that there are conservative Christian sects that give leadership positions to women, those leadership positions should be viewed with some contempt. My mother worked her way through seminary, only to find out that she could only advance to “evangelist” status in his church. Whatever the hell THAT is, but it was made apparent that she’d never get the title “Reverand” or ever be referred to as a minister. So she left the Church of God in Christ and joined the UCC’s. She likes it much better there, as it not only supports her calling but also her progressive politics. I might still be a Christian if I had been raised in this church rather than that other one. Who knows? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-and-the-united-church-of-christ/635439.md?page=2)