# Homosexuality: Is It a Sin
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [October 30, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786 "2009-10-30T23:23:15Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/41 "2009-10-31T00:12:47Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#):
>
> The word rendered as “effeminate” by the NIV is μαλακοὶ (malakoi), which just means “soft ones”. The Greeks had an abundance of words to describe homosexual activity, as various forms of male-male sex were practiced relatively widely. μαλακοὶ is not one of those words. It’s actually an early condemnation of the Pillsbury doughboy.
Actually, the best understanding of _malakoi_ seems to imply, not effeminacy or moral weakness, but lack of steadfastness: the _Malakoi_ were weak in not standing on their principles, as a good Greek citizen would, but bending with every flight of opinion they heard.
_Arsenokoitai_ (sometimes rendered _arsenokaites_) appears to be Paul’s own coinage, thought by many to echo Leviticus 18:22. But that it means “homosexual” or “homosexual offender” in the modern sense is highly debatable – the Leviticus passage addressed “abominable practices of the Canaanites, which you [the Israelites] shall refrain from” – and the best evidence for 18:22’s “lying with a man the lyings as with a woman” seem to reference Canaanite fertility rites, in which male and female alike would copulate with the priests of Ba’al or Astarte in an effort to induce bumper crops.
In short, general, it appears someone shot down your B-29.
---
### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/42 "2009-10-31T00:15:31Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#):
>
> For your last question that is because I wish to turn people away from sinning.
Examinr Matthew 22:34-40, 7:1-2 and 12, 25:31-46. Then follow Michael Jackson’s advice (“Man in the Mirror”, if you didn’t get the reference.
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### Author:  [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/43 "2009-10-31T00:21:00Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#):
>
> I’ve a question.
>
> You interpret the passage in question, seemingly, as referring to homosexuals. That homosexuals are condemned. That actually seems somewhat at odds with what i’ve generally seen as the position of Christians who consider homosexuality a problem, which is that homosexual acts are or may be sinful, but simply being a homosexual, in and of itself, is not.
>
> To clarify your own particular position; do you believe that in Christianity is is homosexual acts that sins, or being a homosexual that is a sin?
The thought and the act are equally sinful (ie anyone who has lusted after a woman in his heart has commited adultery) so being in a state of sinful thought or desires is sin.
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#):
>
> Yes, I know, and my question is why? I mean, that if the only reason you can come up with is because it’s a sin in you particular interpretation of your religion, that’s not a very convincing argument. I can come up with a bunch of reasons why killing people is generally a bad idea. Honoring your parents isn’t nearly as clear cut. Forbidding my slaves to work on the Sabbath seems perverse, and I’m damn sure not slaughtering every first born animal to the lord. I’m assuming you’re not following all the commandments either.
Those are part of the Mosaic law which has been superseded by the NEw Covenent is why I didn’t cite Leviticus.
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### Author:  [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/44 "2009-10-31T00:28:50Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#):
>
> The thought and the act are equally sinful (ie anyone who has lusted after a woman in his heart has commited adultery) so being in a state of sinful thought or desires is sin.
This seems problematic. I mean, for one thing, you can’t really control what you think about until after the initial thought, and even then it depends for some people. I mean, if I mention green elephants, you’ve now got green elephants in your head, and it doesn’t really matter how much you might wish you don’t, you did. It seems unfair to cast as sins that which isn’t under our control.
But, perhaps more problematically, this would mean that there are people for whom mere existence is a sin. I included, in fact. Which means that, essentially, from birth (or conception, I suppose) I’m condemned, whilst others are not until they commit a sin of their own will. That doesn’t seem particularly just to me; why can’t I be judged on my acts and the thoughts I can control rather than the ones I can’t?
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### Author:  [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2009, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/45 "2009-10-31T00:31:57Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#):
>
> Those are part of the Mosaic law which has been superseded by the NEw Covenent is why I didn’t cite Leviticus.
I didn’t know that honoring your parents was now not in the new testament.
I’m an atheist, I have been all my life, biblical laws are all the same to me and I don’t really care which are “true” and which are not. **You** are the one picking a few of them and claiming they’re special, and that others can be ignored. Or more probably, you’re part of a religion that has already made those choices. In any case, my question is still the same - and I notice that you’ve completely avoided answering it: what is the reason that you care about homosexual activity? Especially how it applies to non-believers, but let’s not ignore the christian denominations that are OK with homosexuality. Can you come up with any reason at all that would not be “god doesn’t like it”?
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2009, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/46 "2009-10-31T00:32:05Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#):
>
> The thought and the act are equally sinful (ie anyone who has lusted after a woman in his heart has commited adultery) so being in a state of sinful thought or desires is sin.
Ah; a thoughtcrime.
And very convenient for people wanting to lay down guilt trips, since people \*\*\*can’t \*\*\*just decide to not lust “after a woman in his heart”. People want what they want, whether it is “sinful” or immoral or just stupid. And in fact such a standard will likely just increase “sin”, because trying NOT to think of something is a very effective means of making people think of it.
As someone who doesn’t consider fantasies of any kind wrong, I’m probably less likely to sexually fantasize about someone else’s wife than someone who thinks that doing so is sinful. And who therefore is thinking very hard about how he has to stop thinking about that cute married woman next door.
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### Author:  [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2009, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/47 "2009-10-31T00:35:09Z")
> [@begbert2](#):
>
> [That scripture may not mean what you think it means.](http://mccanchorage.com/?p=205)
>
> Though of course if you’re a “god used a wrong word whn he wrote it so it would mean the right thing after being mistranslated” kind of biblical literalist, then this won’t faze you.
[Yea, it probably does.](http://mccanchorage.com/?page_id=2)
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### Author:  [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2009, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/48 "2009-10-31T00:35:45Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> I question the assumption that Judeo-Christian conceptions of sin are the only valid ones.
To be fair, so far as I can tell, Curtis only seems to be seeking to define the status of homosexuality within Christianity. He hasn’t yet suggested that the answer is the only valid one.
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### Author:  [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2009, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/49 "2009-10-31T00:49:44Z")
> [@](#):
>
> The word “effeminate” is a euphemism for homosexual
So does that mean that bears and butch leatherboys aren’t targeted in that verse?
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/50 "2009-10-31T00:57:07Z")
> [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](#):
>
> So does that mean that bears and butch leatherboys aren’t targeted in that verse?
Perhaps **Curtis LeMay** should push for a Leather n’ Spikes for Christ campaign then, to save gays from sin.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2009, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/51 "2009-10-31T01:00:27Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#):
>
> To be fair, so far as I can tell, Curtis only seems to be seeking to define the status of homosexuality within Christianity. He hasn’t yet suggested that the answer is the only valid one.
I’ll just wait for his next thread: “Voting Democrat - A Sign of Mental Illness?”
---
### Author:  [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/52 "2009-10-31T01:15:41Z")
> [@kanicbird](#):
>
> My way of looking at it is don’t let the law get in the way of doing the will of God. The written code is replaced with God living in your heart.
>
> IMHO God can use a person who has homosexual tendencies to reach people in that lifestyle with the Love of God and without condemnation - if that person is willing to surrender his life to Jesus.
Wow dude, that was really deep. I always find it so sad the way people will call themselves Christian in order to justify what they already set out to do, very carefully stepping over the parts of Christianity that tells them very specifically not to do that very thing.
**Curtis LeMay** , have you ever noticed that God seems to hate all the same people you do? I wonder why that is.
Also, do you see all these acts as equally sinful? After killing all the gays? Who do you plan to go after next?[ul]
[li]sexually immoral[/li][li]idolaters[/li][li]adulterers [/li][li]male prostitutes [/li][li]homosexual offenders [/li][li]thieves[/li][li]greedy [/li][li]drunkards [/li][li]slanderers [/li][\*]swindlers[/ul]
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### Author:  [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2009, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/53 "2009-10-31T01:26:34Z")
No church follows exactly what the Bible says. Try 1 Corinthians 14:34 on for size and see how far it gets you.
And clearly, just because the Bible gives you rules about something, doesn’t mean they’re always relevant. Have a read of Ephesians 6:5-9; instructions for how slaves should be with their masters. Does that mean that slavery should simply be accepted as it was in Paul’s day? Obviously these rules no longer apply.
So you have to study the reason why these rules were given. I imagine homosexual sex was banned because of health issues. Same with having sex outside marriage, before contraception it was generally not good to be having kids if you weren’t intending to stay together.
Things have changed, get with the times. You’re happy dismissing Leviticus because it no longer applies, well how about everything else that no longer logically applies?
Is anal sex with your wife an abomination too?
---
### Author:  [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/54 "2009-10-31T01:36:05Z")
> [@Cort](#):
>
> In fact, I can’t think of a single religious text which doesn’t say something about how being gay sucks.
Well, it’s not 100% but [Hinduism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Hinduism)has varying degrees on it.
If you’re specifically looking for textual stuff, this’d be a start on the [mythology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_themes_and_Hindu_mythology). Like most things in Hinduism, it’s not a black and white issue, but there are texts that don’t condemn it, and those that do, and those are silent with their interpreters having opposite interpretations of the beliefs.
But as for your line of it just sucks to be gay- not quite the case, I’ve grown up with it being included in my texts, it just wasn’t a major point or anything, but it wasn’t certainly a damning thing either. It’s just something that happened and it fit the plot of the story- how you interpret the actions well that’s your own influences that must come into play there. But if you def. want more info, I do encourage the mythology wiki- there are plenty of transgendered, gender switching, eunuchs, and other such behavior seen within the traditions- and not all were negatively perceived.
Then again, I’m sure plenty of people disagree with my religious views- in my religion and out of it. So everyone’s mileage varies.
But just figured I’d at get a chance to point out:
Only Siths deal in Absolutes.
And nice usage of white text there.
---
### Author:  [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2009, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/55 "2009-10-31T01:43:32Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#):
>
> This seems problematic. I mean, for one thing, you can’t really control what you think about until after the initial thought, and even then it depends for some people. I mean, if I mention green elephants, you’ve now got green elephants in your head, and it doesn’t really matter how much you might wish you don’t, you did. It seems unfair to cast as sins that which isn’t under our control.
>
> But, perhaps more problematically, this would mean that there are people for whom mere existence is a sin. I included, in fact. Which means that, essentially, from birth (or conception, I suppose) I’m condemned, whilst others are not until they commit a sin of their own will. That doesn’t seem particularly just to me; why can’t I be judged on my acts and the thoughts I can control rather than the ones I can’t?
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> Ah; a thoughtcrime.
>
> And very convenient for people wanting to lay down guilt trips, since people \*\*\*can’t \*\*\*just decide to not lust “after a woman in his heart”. People want what they want, whether it is “sinful” or immoral or just stupid. And in fact such a standard will likely just increase “sin”, because trying NOT to think of something is a very effective means of making people think of it.
>
> As someone who doesn’t consider fantasies of any kind wrong, I’m probably less likely to sexually fantasize about someone else’s wife than someone who thinks that doing so is sinful. And who therefore is thinking very hard about how he has to stop thinking about that cute married woman next door.
Well many people can’t help but desire to steal or rob out of greed. Also it’s no the though of lusting that’s sinful it’s the though of wanting to lust that’s sinful or lusting but thinking it’s all right; if you know it’s wrong and recognize it’s alright if you have ocacaisonal thought of lust you can’t help with.
[quote=“emacknight, post:52, topic:515786”]
Wow dude, that was really deep. I always find it so sad the way people will call themselves Christian in order to justify what they already set out to do, very carefully stepping over the parts of Christianity that tells them very specifically not to do that very thing.
**Curtis LeMay** , have you ever noticed that God seems to hate all the same people you do? I wonder why that is.
Also, do you see all these acts as equally sinful? After killing all the gays? Who do you plan to go after next?[ul]
[li]sexually immoral[/li][li]idolaters[/li][li]adulterers [/li][li]male prostitutes [/li][li]homosexual offenders [/li][li]thieves[/li][li]greedy [/li][li]drunkards [/li][li]slanderers [/li][li]swindlers[/ul][/li][/QUOTE]
“Kill”, “Go After”? I favour neither against any group of sinners, but I will try to stop them from sinning or at least recognize it’s sin.
> [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](#):
>
> No church follows exactly what the Bible says. Try 1 Corinthians 14:34 on for size and see how far it gets you.
>
> And clearly, just because the Bible gives you rules about something, doesn’t mean they’re always relevant. Have a read of Ephesians 6:5-9; instructions for how slaves should be with their masters. Does that mean that slavery should simply be accepted as it was in Paul’s day? Obviously these rules no longer apply.
>
> So you have to study the reason why these rules were given. I imagine homosexual sex was banned because of health issues. Same with having sex outside marriage, before contraception it was generally not good to be having kids if you weren’t intending to stay together.
>
> Things have changed, get with the times. You’re happy dismissing Leviticus because it no longer applies, well how about everything else that no longer logically applies?
>
> Is anal sex with your wife an abomination too?
Does homosexuality or sex outside marriage still exist? Then the rules still apply since slavery has been abolished at least in the US.
---
### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/56 "2009-10-31T01:48:28Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#):
>
> To be fair, so far as I can tell, Curtis only seems to be seeking to define the status of homosexuality within Christianity. He hasn’t yet suggested that the answer is the only valid one.
That wasn’t directed at **Curtis LeMay** , so much as everyone in the thread- every argument has centered on Biblical prohibition.
---
### Author:  [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2009, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/57 "2009-10-31T02:01:12Z")
**Curtis** , if you’re not interested in actually answering any of the reasonable (and, IMHO more interesting) questions, just say so.
---
### Author:  [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/58 "2009-10-31T02:05:43Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#):
>
> Does homosexuality or sex outside marriage still exist? Then the rules still apply since slavery has been abolished at least in the US.
“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard.” 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death.”
Children still exist. Do you still think we should stone them to death if they misbehave?
---
### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/59 "2009-10-31T02:07:54Z")
Well, on a practical level, I don’t see how we’re going to pay for town gates in this economy.
Or how we’re going to compel old people to stand around near them waiting for some cheeky young whippersnapper to be hauled up by his parents for stoning.
---
### Author:  [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/60 "2009-10-31T02:10:04Z")
Are you kidding? Old towns folk live for that kind of thing.
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