# Homosexuality: Is It a Sin
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [October 30, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786 "2009-10-30T23:23:15Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 8
### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/141 "2009-11-02T02:07:21Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#):
>
> That is faith. If you have faith than you will be convinced of following God (ie the Abhramic God) and His moral directives. Also I do make moral choices myself, for instance I would probably kill in self-defense although the Bible does not wish it.
Also if have you will be convinced that Haile Selassie was God incarnate, that coffee enemas and walnuts cure cancer better than western medicine, or that the Hale Bopp comet is a spaceship that’s going to take everyone to paradise once you castrate yourself and eat some poisoned Jell-O, all of which have been truly believed by people willing to die for the conviction. THIS IS NOT A RHETORICAL QUESTION: How is faith in the “Abhramic God” [sic] different? Do you think it’s a lucky coincidence that you were born in a nation where Christianity is already rooted or do you think that if you had been born to Abdul and Khadija in a Pakistani village you’d _still_ have been able to deduce that Christianity is the one true faith.
> [@](#):
>
> Jesus reinforced the Ten Commandments by specifically saying “Do Not Kill”, “Do Not Commit Adultery”, and so on.
As did every other moral code on Earth. Do you believe people who do not honor the Sabbath or do not respect their parents should be killed? It was the penalty for violating them when the Big 10 were written after all.
---
### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2009, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/142 "2009-11-02T02:19:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> Paul himself never actually tells the Damascus story. Acts was written by Luke.
Granted, but I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt that Luke was quoting him. I really don’t believe it’s embellished since if somebody were going to make up a miraculous conversion story I think even a Pentecostal claims adjuster would have the imagination to cook up something more interesting and miraculous sounding than that.
So even taking him at his word (this being for the OP rather than Dio), you have a man who you’ve never met who’s been dead for 1950 years and who never met Jesus in the flesh claiming he passed out on a road at noontime and therefore has the ultimate word in the church. You believe that in a world where slavery (including sex slavery) was open and ubiquitous, where murder was routine, where crucifixions were not just routine (live long enough and you’ll probably get to see hundreds or even thousands of them) but popular entertainment, where incest was so common that Herod the Great had grandchildren who were also his great grandchildren as well as his great-great-grandchildren (and this was 100% legal in the eyes of the Jewish law- uncle-niece marriage, no problem), where eunuchs dressed in drag and served as priests and bathed in blood of slaughtered animals, where underground (literally underground) rites for various cults involved everything from self mutilation to group sex, where any number of gods were pictured on the currency in everyday use, where slaves could not just be raped but worked and beaten to death with complete impunity, where men fought to the death in theaters for popular entertainment, and where- again- every conceivable sexual practice was known and had names- homosexuality was the thing worth complaining about? And that this man who by his own admission never met Jesus, who seemed to know nothing of his life from the virgin birth to the Resurrection judging by his writing, and who barely got along with those who did know Jesus (including the one specifically ordained by Jesus as the ‘petra’) had the authority to speak for him to such a degree that a vague reference to effeminacy (the closest thing malakoi seems to come to incidentally is delicatus- also ‘soft’- and they were anal-sex slaves who had little choice about their livelihood or activities) should be used to outlaw and condemn homosexuality 2000 years later.
Fascinating.
Explain please, preferably without using “in my opinion” or faith or synonymous wording, the logic of this even if Jesus was indeed the Messiah.
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### Author:  [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2009, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/143 "2009-11-02T07:41:42Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#):
>
> So you’re saying I shouldn’t care about anyone. LOL.
Would it be possible for you to care about your fellow Christians, and leave the rest of us the hell alone?
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### Author:  [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2009, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/144 "2009-11-02T09:00:31Z")
**panache** , **Curtis** has forgotten that the burden of judgment is something that he doesn’t have to worry himself with. He mentioned the Rev. Billy Graham. Wonderful man. Even Billy believes that you don’t have to be a Christian to go to heaven.
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### Author:  [@lurking\_guest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurking_guest)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2009, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/145 "2009-11-02T09:51:30Z")
There are Two “Great Commandments” in the Christian Tradition.
Jesus said so.
Not Paul. Not John. Not the Pope. Not Constantine. Not the Second Vatican Council.
And these two are:
1 - Love God with all of your Soul and Mind and Body
2- Love your neighbor as yourself.
ALL of the Laws and the Prophets are fulfilled therein.
Secular or religious…can anyone dispute that “loving your neighbor as yourself” would not change the entire tenor of the world?
Who Cares WHO said it?
It is the only mindset that offers peace.
For individuals. For the Planet.
C’mon.
Does anyone CARE if it was Bill Clinton or Thomas Jefferson or Rabbi Schmule or Freud or the Pope or Joseph Smith or Mohhamed or Jesus Christ or Abraham?
Really?
Loving “your neighbor” (from next door to across the world) as “yourself” is the only damn way that there will ever be peace.
Ah…but “competition” raises it’s ugly head.
Can we ever really see one another as “equals”?
Do we even want to?
How about the “greedy” or “slanderers” in the list of “sinners.”
Christ! The “greedy”??!!
American financial participants are DOOMED!! (Along with the homosexuals…)
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### Author:  [@lurking\_guest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurking_guest)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2009, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/146 "2009-11-02T10:28:25Z")
ETA…and “Slanderers”…etc.
Good God.
Let’s focus on the “GREEDY” for a change!!
Please Christians, can’t we agree that the greedy and the gossips and the “slanderers” are having a far greater impact on our world than homosexuals?
Can’t we? Agree on that?
The “greedy” fill our House of Representatives and our Senate and the Executive branch.
And the “Supreme Court” is not sinless.
And not just in THIS country - but in EVERY country.
Will the majority of the citizens of the world EVER commit to persons of good character to run the wheels of government and commerce, rather than the Geitners and Saudis and Paulsens and Husseins?
Good grief!
If you’re lookin’ to find the minds and hearts in ANY country who want to uplift and protect those with money and power - you can look to the counterparts in every government and every FORM of government on the planet.
Abhor it or love it…
Quit thinking that “American” or “Soviet” or “Socialist” or “Communist” or “Muslim” or “Christian” or “African” or “Democracy” or “Parlimentary” governments or sensibilities rule… IF you do, you are a pawn.
It is the GLOBAL connection of ALL people with millions and billions and trillions of dollars of wealth who are the most connected.
Not countries. Not politics. Not governments. Not “philosophies.”
It is wealth that runs the world. (As always.)
“They” run the Governments, the Militaries and the form and functioning of Every society.
Everything ‘beneath’ them is…you and I.
In whatever country and whatever form of government.
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### Author:  [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2009, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/147 "2009-11-02T11:11:12Z")
> [@Homebrew](#):
>
> But there is choice. As long as you chose to deny your attraction to men, as long as you chose to be married to a woman, as long as you chose to ignore that nagging sense that something is misaligned with your life, then you are not really a homosexual and can continue to believe the nonsense you grew up learning in your Pentecostal church about sin and God and everything.
>
> It was all a choice you made to follow God. It did not matter one whit that this caused you all kinds of inner torment. It did not stop the attraction, but you could write those off as Satan tempting. And most of all it means you’re saved!
>
> But then you make the “mistake” of trying to reconcile the two - not for yourself, mind you, but for some gay friends whom you could not believe were Evil. Before long you had to reject the Pentecostal church as inauthentic Christianity and have a go at being a Methodist. Well, the problem just continued there as even the preacher was willing to explore the meaning and context of the scriptures and come to the conclusion that homosexuals are the Children of God and worthy of love and acceptance, even the “practicing” kind.
>
> Once you get to studying the scriptures that closely, it gets rather obvious that some of it is just bunk from the get-go. And some of it just doesn’t make any sense. And then you start to question the idea that God inspired the damned thing at all. And furthermore, God doesn’t even make sense.
>
> Before long, you’ve come out of the closet as both gay and an atheist.
>
> And that’s why being gay HAS to be a SIN. Full Stop.
>
> Or at least that’s how my story went.
You forgot the loss of income because you are no longer tithing …
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### Author:  [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2009, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/148 "2009-11-02T11:19:18Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#):
>
> For God’s sake, it’s from the Mosaic Law which NO LONGER applies to Christians. I cited only New Testament passages not OT ones on homosexuality.
And I want the exact text ordering christians to no longer follow mosaic laws…
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### Author:  [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2009, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/149 "2009-11-02T12:50:13Z")
> [@aruvqan](#):
>
> And I want the exact text ordering christians to no longer follow mosaic laws…
Theres at least 3 or 4, neither obscure or arcane.
Can you not find them yourself?
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### Author:  [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2009, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/150 "2009-11-02T15:26:53Z")
> [@Sampiro](#):
>
> Also if have you will be convinced that Haile Selassie was God incarnate, that coffee enemas and walnuts cure cancer better than western medicine, or that the Hale Bopp comet is a spaceship that’s going to take everyone to paradise once you castrate yourself and eat some poisoned Jell-O, all of which have been truly believed by people willing to die for the conviction.
Nitpick: it was poisoned apple sauce.
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### Author:  [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/151 "2009-11-02T16:07:13Z")
Polycarp:
> [@](#):
>
> You’re right; it’s surprising, with the amount of pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness, and failure to aid the poor and needy in this country, that God has not seen fit to smite the McMansion suburbanites.
That’s a pretty low comment. The United States of America has one of the highest rates of charitable giving in the world.
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### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/152 "2009-11-02T18:04:23Z")
> [@cmkeller](#):
>
> Polycarp:
>
> That’s a pretty low comment. The United States of America has one of the highest rates of charitable giving in the world.
[http://www.vexen.co.uk/countries/charity.html](http://www.vexen.co.uk/countries/charity.html) Not true. We love to tell ourselves that.
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### Author:  [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/153 "2009-11-02T18:13:20Z")
> [@raindog](#):
>
> Theres at least 3 or 4, neither obscure or arcane.
>
> Can you not find them yourself?
As \*\*aruvqan \*\*did not make the assertion, it is not incumbent upon him to support it; it is incumbent upon those who make the assertion.
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### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/154 "2009-11-02T18:56:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#):
>
> Nitpick: it was poisoned apple sauce.
[Peter Brady]So we’re havin’ our nuts chopped and apple sauce…[/Peter Brady]
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### Author:  [@Ninas\_grandpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ninas_grandpa)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/155 "2009-11-02T20:08:43Z")
Of course for a lot of us this question is moot. If sin is an offence against god, then for those of us who do not believe in god’s existence, sin does not exist either.
We can only answer questions such as “Is homosexuality immoral” (No) or “Is homosexuality a crime” (It depends where you live)
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### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/156 "2009-11-02T20:27:52Z")
> [@Ninas\_grandpa](#):
>
> Of course for a lot of us this question is moot. If sin is an offence against god, then for those of us who do not believe in god’s existence, sin does not exist either.
> We can only answer questions such as “Is homosexuality immoral” (No) or “Is homosexuality a crime” (It depends where you live)
My favorite definition of sin (and many of my other favorite quotes on morality) comes from Robert Heinlein’s [Notebooks of Lazarus Long Part 1](http://www.angelfire.com/or/sociologyshop/lazlong.html#inter):
> [@](#):
>
> “Sin lies only in hurting others unnecessarily. All other “sins” are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful, just stupid.)”
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### Author:  [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)
#### Post date: [November 2, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/157 "2009-11-02T23:25:25Z")
gonzomax:
> [@](#):
>
> [http://www.vexen.co.uk/countries/charity.html](http://www.vexen.co.uk/countries/charity.html) Not true. We love to tell ourselves that.
Your site refers to US government foreign aid, not individual (i.e., the folks in the maligned “McMansions”) charitable giving.
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### Author:  [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/158 "2009-11-03T03:21:43Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#):
>
> Is homosexuality a sin?
>
> I think in Christianity homosexuality is a sin as evidenced by Corinthians I 6:9-10 (NIV):
My Corinthians I 6:9 reads:
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,”
So…you also can’t be a dude that likes figure skating or ‘abusing yourself with mankind’.
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### Author:  [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/159 "2009-11-03T03:26:58Z")
> [@Sampiro](#):
>
> Also if have you will be convinced that Haile Selassie was God incarnate, that coffee enemas and walnuts cure cancer better than western medicine, or that the Hale Bopp comet is a spaceship that’s going to take everyone to paradise once you castrate yourself and eat some poisoned Jell-O, all of which have been truly believed by people willing to die for the conviction. THIS IS NOT A RHETORICAL QUESTION: How is faith in the “Abhramic God” [sic] different? Do you think it’s a lucky coincidence that you were born in a nation where Christianity is already rooted or do you think that if you had been born to Abdul and Khadija in a Pakistani village you’d _still_ have been able to deduce that Christianity is the one true faith.
Well I am not a theologian but the Calvinist theologian will say that your salvation has been foreordained by God and thus my birth here too was predestined and the Arminian theologian will say that I have free will but that I have a much of a chance as anyone as being converted. At any rate I was born where I was and I think I am right. Also there have been plenty of staunch people of one religion converted to another, so who’s to say?
> [@](#):
>
> As did every other moral code on Earth. Do you believe people who do not honor the Sabbath or do not respect their parents should be killed? It was the penalty for violating them when the Big 10 were written after all.
No because Jesus also stopped a stoning of an adulterer, thus He is opposed to such excessive use of the death penalty.
> [@panache45](#):
>
> Would it be possible for you to care about your fellow Christians, and leave the rest of us the hell alone?
No because I do not wish to send anyone to Hell.
> [@Zoe](#):
>
> **panache** , **Curtis** has forgotten that the burden of judgment is something that he doesn’t have to worry himself with. He mentioned the Rev. Billy Graham. Wonderful man. Even Billy believes that you don’t have to be a Christian to go to heaven.
Cite?
> [@aruvqan](#):
>
> And I want the exact text ordering christians to no longer follow mosaic laws…
Galatians 3:1-14 (NIV):
> [@](#):
>
> You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing-if it really was for nothing? Does God give you His Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
> Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
> All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the laws by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Curse is everyone who is hung on a tree.” He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
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### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/160 "2009-11-03T03:55:34Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#):
>
> Galatians 3:1-14 (NIV):
Show where Jesus said it. Not Paul.
> [@](#):
>
> At any rate I was born where I was and I think I am right.
Every single one of the billions of religious people on Earth think that they are right. That’s why they are what they are. They can’t _all_ be right (though there are many ways they could all be wrong) nor will they ever convince most of the others of their rectitude. Except of course by force.
So leave us alone and I’ll absolve you. My soul and its outcome is my business and I release you of any obligation and I suspect most others do as well. And I think I’m right.
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