# Homosexuality: Is It a Sin
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [October 30, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786 "2009-10-30T23:23:15Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 9
### Author:  [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2009, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/161 "2009-11-03T04:53:05Z")
Under Jainism, eating a drop of honey is as big of a sin as burning seven villages. So according to Jainists, most of us are bad bad people. Sins depend on the religion.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2009, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/162 "2009-11-03T05:30:08Z")
Jains don’t really have “sin.” They’re all about karma.
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### Author:  [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2009, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/163 "2009-11-03T05:43:12Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#):
>
> Well I am not a theologian but the Calvinist theologian will say that your salvation has been foreordained by God and thus my birth here too was predestined and the Arminian theologian will say that I have free will but that I have a much of a chance as anyone as being converted. At any rate I was born where I was and I think I am right. Also there have been plenty of staunch people of one religion converted to another, so who’s to say?
I would just like to point out that this is a fabulously inadequate response to \*\*Sampiro’s \*\*very serious challenge to the adequacy of your grounds for your Christian belief. Would you care to try again? The fact that you, personally, were born a Christian is not evidence of Christianity’s truth.
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### Author:  [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2009, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/164 "2009-11-03T06:51:23Z")
Yeah, I gotta agree with \*\*S&I \*\*up there…
If you changed the word _Calvinist Theologian_ to “Hindu Scholar” and kept the rest even the fact that you were born into Christianity and think you’re right, you’ve just validated my Hinduism beliefs as being correct by that arguement.
The fact that my God says that you will think that your God tells you things and you listen to it, and won’t be converted to my God’s Religion doesn’t help make anyone’s case stronger. It just becomes a game of “Well, MY God’s Right.” “Well My God says you’d say that!” and so on. It’s the ol’ “I am rubber and you glue, so everything you say bounces off of me, and damn you to the eternal fires of hell” of all theological arguments (Okay not really, but I just wanted to use that line).
But it IS an amusing argument, I wonder how many other religions you could just switch in and out in there and still have that argument be valid to their believers?
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### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2009, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/165 "2009-11-03T06:52:25Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#):
>
> Under Jainism, eating a drop of honey is as big of a sin as burning seven villages.
It also has way more carbs. As long as you don’t eat the captured honey plundering villages not only gets no carbs but actually burns a lot of calories, thus it’s way better for you.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/166 "2009-11-04T00:38:18Z")
To answer the OP- No, it ain’t.
Being Jewish, I can completely ignore the NT. That leaves me with one line of prohibition. A line which can, without strain, be read as ‘Do not visit the temple prostitutes of other gods. I am the Lord.’
Some will object that I’m reaching, and subjecting that line to special status. Those people are ignorant. Every line, EVERY LINE, of the Torah gets subjected to the same scrutiny and has as many alternative explanations. Pick up a haggadah (the book for the Passover service) sometime. Among other things, arguments are made- based on two lines that there were not ten plagues, but forty, fifty, or two hundred and fifty.
Frankly, as a Jew, all the intermarriage worries me a lot more than homosexuality.
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### Author:  [@cuberdon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuberdon)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/167 "2009-11-04T04:43:04Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#):
>
> > [@Zoe](#):
> >
> > **panache** , **Curtis** has forgotten that the burden of judgment is something that he doesn’t have to worry himself with. He mentioned the Rev. Billy Graham. Wonderful man. Even Billy believes that you don’t have to be a Christian to go to heaven.
>
> Cite?
Newsweek August 14, 2006:
> [@](#):
>
> When asked whether he believes heaven will be closed to good Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or secular people, though, Graham says: “Those are decisions only the Lord will make. It would be foolish for me to speculate on who will be there and who won’t … I don’t want to speculate about all that. I believe the love of God is absolute. He said he gave his son for the whole world, and I think he loves everybody regardless of what label they have.” Such an ecumenical spirit may upset some Christian hard-liners, but in Graham’s view, only God knows who is going to be saved: “As an evangelist for more than six decades, Mr. Graham has faithfully proclaimed the Bible’s Gospel message that Jesus is the only way to Heaven,” says Graham spokesman A. Larry Ross. “However, salvation is the work of Almighty God, and only he knows what is in each human heart.”
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### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/168 "2009-11-04T07:04:17Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> Some will object that I’m reaching, and subjecting that line to special status. Those people are ignorant. Every line, EVERY LINE, of the Torah gets subjected to the same scrutiny and has as many alternative explanations. Pick up a haggadah (the book for the Passover service) sometime. Among other things, arguments are made- based on two lines that there were not ten plagues, but forty, fifty, or two hundred and fifty.
You guys have the OT Deleted Scenes and the Director’s Cut.
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### Author:  [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/169 "2009-11-04T16:26:52Z")
And still no word from Curtis on Paul.
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### Author:  [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/170 "2009-11-04T18:29:09Z")
> **[Leviticus 18:22 - Unlawful Sexual Relations](https://biblehub.com/leviticus/18-22.htm)**
>
> You must not lie with a man as with a woman; that is an abomination.
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### Author:  [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/171 "2009-11-04T18:41:00Z")
> [@Sampiro](#):
>
> You guys have the OT Deleted Scenes and the Director’s Cut.
But that sequel they made…doesn’t exist. Some idiot sold the story rights and then the project got fourteen scriptwriters and was delayed for a reedit after the focus group screening and…we know how this turns out.
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### Author:  [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/172 "2009-11-04T19:54:57Z")
it’s not just “sin”, it is “abomination”, see Leviticus 18:22 “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”
I think the only things explicitly listed as “abomination” are idolatry, witchcraft and homosexuality. Not murder, and not adultery or rape which were all usually punishable by death. Not failing to keep the Shabbat. And no, not the everybody’s favorite “shalt not {f} sow thy vineyard with divers seeds” in Deut 22:9 and similar minor issues that make zero sense in our modern situation and for which no punishment of any kind is listed.
In short, God of the Bible REALLY cared/cares about this. Oh, and refusal to accept Biblical law (except when explicitly abrogated, as with kosher for non Jews) because “God is love” is called [Antinomianism - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinomianism)
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### Author:  [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/173 "2009-11-04T20:30:50Z")
DocCathode:
> [@](#):
>
> That leaves me with one line of prohibition. A line which can, without strain, be read as ‘Do not visit the temple prostitutes of other gods. I am the Lord.’
Doc, it takes quite a bit of strain. The exact wording is “And a male, you shall not lie with in the manner of a woman.” The context is a list of sexual prohibitions such as incest, adultery, bestialty and relations with a menstruating woman, none of which were ever thought by anyone to be limited to the “temple prostitution” situation. Granted, there’s one line in that section about human sacrifice to Moloch, but the fact is that the homosexuality line is definitely referring to sex, and it is logically a blanket prohibition like the other sexual acts described in the section.
No one, until the rise of the modern gay-rights movement, has ever interpreted Leviticus as meaning anything other than a complete prohibition of male-male homosexual sex acts. The recent attempts at re-interpretation by some folks who find themselves uncomfortable with a religion that clearly condemns activities which are the subject of a modern civil rights movement are very much a strain.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/174 "2009-11-04T21:19:12Z")
> [@code\_grey](#):
>
> I think the only things explicitly listed as “abomination” are idolatry, witchcraft and homosexuality.
Shrimp is also an abomination. Don’t believe me? [www.godhatesshrimp.com](http://www.godhatesshrimp.com)
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### Author:  [@Xotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xotan)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/175 "2009-11-04T23:37:15Z")
[quote=“code\_grey, post:172, topic:515786”]
it’s not just “sin”, it is “abomination”, see Leviticus 18:22 “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”
I think the only things explicitly listed as “abomination” are idolatry, witchcraft and homosexuality. Not murder, and not adultery or rape which were all usually punishable by death.
Toevah haGoyim - generally given in English as 'Abomination.
But firstly you are understanding the word with all the accreted significance that 1500 years of bigotry have built onto the concept of same gender sexual expression.
Toevah haGoyim is the abomination of the Gentiles. It refers to the ritual and ceremonial purity that required of Jews, and which separated them from their neighbours. It does not mean something that you expect to crawl out of the Black Lagoon.
There are, moreover other things that are regarded a Toevah - shellfish, mixed fabrics in a garment, cutting one’s hair, eating pork… read Leviticus. These are all abominations, and there is no indication of one being worse than the other. So therefore, if you want to take the word abomination with its accreted significance, then most Christians are also committing abominations as bad as asnything gays might do. So it doesn’t do to cast stones when you too are abominating.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/176 "2009-11-04T23:44:57Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> Shrimp is also an abomination.
Well, [look](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Woda-6_ubt.jpeg) at them! Abomination? Outright Lovecraftian!
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### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/177 "2009-11-05T01:33:26Z")
So which is worse: abomination or sin? And what’s the most important difference?
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/178 "2009-11-05T01:59:25Z")
> [@Sampiro](#):
>
> So which is worse: abomination or sin? And what’s the most important difference?
The most important difference is that sin is not a Marvel comics villain. Abomination is.
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### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/179 "2009-11-05T02:02:37Z")
> [@DocCathode](#):
>
> The most important difference is that sin is not a Marvel comics villain.
Yet. 😉
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-it-a-sin/515786/180 "2009-11-05T02:18:46Z")
It seems that after Mother Night and the Sisters Of Sin left the Red Skull’s control, Mother Night changed her name to Sin.
So the real difference between Abomination and Sin is that Abomination is all mutated and gross and Sin is appealing with nice boobs.
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