# Homosexuality is 'unnatural' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031 "2013-07-20T13:42:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/181 "2013-07-22T20:19:19Z")
How do you think lesbianism plays into all this? Well over half of all lesbians have children. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/182 "2013-07-22T20:31:54Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > If you can’t come up with a better answer to a question than more questions, perhaps you should reconsider answering at all. This is now the second post you’ve made in reply to my question that did not answer my question, so perhaps you should take your own advice. If you can find time in your busy schedule to take a look at the dictionary entry I linked above, then definitions 2, 4, 5, 7, and 10 all look to me like they cover homosexuality while not including everything else. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/183 "2013-07-22T20:35:01Z")
I agree with the OP’s assertion, that the argument from nature is bogus. The main reason is, as someone above pointed out, lots of things are natural but abhorrent, and lots of unnatural things are wonderful. If we let nature be our only guide, we get stuck in some pretty uncomfortable positions. (pun intended.) I take exception to this point: > [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Firstly, humans are part of nature and therefore anything we do is by definition, natural. By that definition of “natural” everything is natural, and the word loses its meaning. Rather than doom a perfectly good word to usefulness, I’d suggest a meaningful definition. One useful definition is “that which would exist without the impact of humans”. [By this definition, homosexuality – in animals – is natural.] However, this definition is useless when we’re talking about human behavior. When we step over that line, the meaning becomes very hazy. Might it mean what we’d do without culture? I say “no,” because I don’t think mankind could exist at all without culture (nor could have many of our direct predecessor species). Another meaning is, “it’s in our nature.” As one who credits sociobiolgy, I can see myself saying “It’s natural that males are promiscous while females tend to cheat only with higher status males.” Even by this definition, I find homosexuality “natural”: some percentage of the population is likely to be this way, it’s “human nature” just as it’s “animal nature” for some animals. I’m sure I could come up with definitions where homosexuality is not natural. Who the hell cares? > [@jtgain](#): > > If I use my arms to throw rocks at the river, I will be at an evolutionary disadvantage to a man that throws rocks at predators or prey. Likewise if my propensity is to be attracted to males, my reproductive potential is very small. Or were you talking about bisexuality? Au contrare, your practice would allow you to outperform those who only throw rocks when prey are available. > [@magellan01](#): > > Natural lubricant. OK, so homos who only do oral are OK. 😉 > [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > **magellan01** somewhat has a point. It’s hard to argue that they aren’t complementary. I agree. Whether that definition of “natural” has any bearing on the question of whether homosexuality is good or bad is another question, one which Magellan01 hasn’t gone into, and I agree with the rest of your post. I bet Magellan01 does too. Most of the arguments against his claim are beside the point, but rather are simply resisting making an admission against interest. Not that I think it’s really even against interest. > [@Marley23](#): > > Yes, which suggests that the word “unnatural” is an arbitrary and almost meaningless term that tries to use the natural word as a proxy for cultural or personal disapproval. And that happens to be exactly true. That’s why the people who are arguing that homosexuality _could_ be unnatural can’t come up with a rational basis for that claim. Right. > [@yorick73](#): > > Well…I am a biologist. Does that matter? You don’t need to be a biologist to understand that the penis and vagina are complimentary sex organs. The layman could tick off a handful of differences between the anus and vagina to make that point. Right. You guys aren’t really in disagreement, despite contradicting each other, when it comes down to it. > [@Miller](#): > > [There are 67 definitions for the word “natural” on this page.](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/natural) Can you point out which one you’re using? I can’t seem to find it. Bingo. We’re down to another pretty meaningless semantic argument. But it does help illustrate the answer to the OP’s question: why can people use this argument against homosexuality? I do agree with whoever said above that the main reason they argue against it is because it’s icky, but that doesn’t make very good rhetoric, so they fall back on these semantically open-ended ones. It’s easy to make what sounds like a good point when you’re using words that have so many different meanings. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/184 "2013-07-22T20:41:10Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > This is now the second post you’ve made in reply to my question that did not answer my question, so perhaps you should take your own advice. Because I have no desire to answer a pointless rhetorical question, especially not one made in response to a genuine question. But since you addressed me directly, I still responded. And as much as I hate to play the “you started it” card, I _did_ ask a question first. It was directed at anyone who cares to answer. Since you don’t care to answer, consider it not directed at you. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/185 "2013-07-22T21:43:20Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Because I have no desire to answer a pointless rhetorical question, especially not one made in response to a genuine question. But since you addressed me directly, I still responded. And as much as I hate to play the “you started it” card, I _did_ ask a question first. It was directed at anyone who cares to answer. Since you don’t care to answer, consider it not directed at you. I’ve already answered your question twice. I apologize if the point of my rhetorical question was too subtle for you\*, but I did just provided you with a list of relevant definitions from a widely used English dictionary that’s available for free online. It’s not my fault you can’t be bothered to spend a few seconds reading these definitions. \*That point being that if you’d like a definition of ‘natural’ that includes homosexuality but not everything else, you could try one of the definitions that includes heterosexuality but not everything else. ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/186 "2013-07-22T22:41:51Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Where have you heard about that?!? I know it’s shocking, isn’t it? Lol ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/187 "2013-07-22T23:12:22Z")
I love unnatural things. Being unnatural is not an argument against anything. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Okieshowedem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/okieshowedem/32/7278_2.png) [@Okieshowedem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okieshowedem)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/188 "2013-07-23T00:52:28Z")
29 And as Isayah said before: 2Unless Yahweh of Sabaoth; hosts, armies, had left us a seed, we would have become like Sodom, and we would have been made like Gomorrah. When the whole world has turned queer, will you believe then? Remember what the Scriptures say, we are fools not to believe ALL that the prophets have spoken. Luke 24:25 ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/189 "2013-07-23T01:00:39Z")
When the whole world is queer, so long as there are still two sexes, and women are willing to do that hard part, then civilization would roll right along. Indeed, it might break apart into two civilizations, one for men and one for women. Bummer for us het-guys, but, what the hell. As for “all” that the prophets have said, why aren’t Christians following the kosher laws? (And why aren’t you putting to death the guy who mows his lawn on the Sabbath?) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/190 "2013-07-23T01:04:45Z")
> [@Okieshowedem](#): > > 29 And as Isayah said before: 2Unless Yahweh of Sabaoth; hosts, armies, had left us a seed, we would have become like Sodom, and we would have been made like Gomorrah. > > When the whole world has turned queer, will you believe then? > > Remember what the Scriptures say, we are fools not to believe ALL that the prophets have spoken. Luke 24:25 If I throw quotes from Harry Potter at you will you accept them as absolute truth? Same-same. ---
**Author:** ![Okieshowedem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/okieshowedem/32/7278_2.png) [@Okieshowedem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okieshowedem)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/191 "2013-07-23T01:08:41Z")
I’m not one of them. Second no need to stone that fool who cuts his grass on the Sabbath he is killing his self. Remember the prophet wrote that the day you break the Torah dying you will die. This is not instance it take a while but it is as sure as the sun rise. ---
**Author:** ![Okieshowedem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/okieshowedem/32/7278_2.png) [@Okieshowedem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okieshowedem)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/192 "2013-07-23T01:11:21Z")
f I throw quotes from Harry Potter at you will you accept them as absolute truth? Same-same. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/193 "2013-07-23T01:11:32Z")
> [@Okieshowedem](#): > > 29 And as Isayah said before: 2Unless Yahweh of Sabaoth; hosts, armies, had left us a seed, we would have become like Sodom, and we would have been made like Gomorrah. It’s unlikely that that’s what he was talking about. > [@](#): > > When the whole world has turned queer, will you believe then? This is absurd and will never happen. And no, I wouldn’t believe you then either. > [@Okieshowedem](#): > > Second no need to stone that fool who cuts his grass on the Sabbath he is killing his self. How convenient. > [@](#): > > Remember the prophet wrote that the day you break the Torah dying you will die. No, you won’t. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/194 "2013-07-23T02:48:24Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > **Homosexuality is ‘unnatural’** Not as unnatural as something **I** just thought up, heh-heh-heh . . . ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/195 "2013-07-23T03:09:06Z")
> [@Okieshowedem](#): > > I’m not one of them. > Second no need to stone that fool who cuts his grass on the Sabbath he is killing his self. > Remember the prophet wrote that the day you break the Torah dying you will die. > This is not instance it take a while but it is as sure as the sun rise. You choosed a good username, because I agree that okie u showed em with that one!!! ill tell u a story. one day, i cut miy grass on fryday after teh sun goes down, and the next mroning, guess how i got woked up from my sleeps? yes, u got it right. it was a dayariah (spelling?) that awokended me! let that be lesson for u… do not cut ur grass on the shabbat! if u do, the lord will be angry. and maybe u get sick! ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/196 "2013-07-23T04:15:18Z")
Well shit! Not only am I gay, there’s a 28.571% chance that when I mow the lawn, it’ll be on somebody’s sabbath. And lord knows in how many other ways I’ve broken the Torah. I’m screwed. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/197 "2013-07-23T04:23:59Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > And lord knows in how many other ways I’ve broken the Torah. That’s what the Jews said when they bombed Pearl Harbor! “Torah, Torah, Torah!” ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/198 "2013-07-23T05:59:59Z")
> [@Okieshowedem](#): > > I’m not one of them. > Second no need to stone that fool who cuts his grass on the Sabbath he is killing his self. > Remember the prophet wrote that the day you break the Torah dying you will die. > This is not instance it take a while but it is as sure as the sun rise. Have you really been here for six years? > [@panache45](#): > > Well shit! Not only am I gay, there’s a 28.571% chance that when I mow the lawn, it’ll be on somebody’s sabbath. And lord knows in how many other ways I’ve broken the Torah. I’m screwed. Yes, shit. Lots and lots of sloppy shit. According to **colander** , you can expect to be smitten with a chronic case of the runs, heathen. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/199 "2013-07-23T10:56:40Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I’ve already answered your question twice. I apologize if the point of my rhetorical question was too subtle for you\*, but I did just provided you with a list of relevant definitions from a widely used English dictionary that’s available for free online. It’s not my fault you can’t be bothered to spend a few seconds reading these definitions. > > \*That point being that if you’d like a definition of ‘natural’ that includes homosexuality but not everything else, you could try one of the definitions that includes heterosexuality but not everything else. Thanks for the apology, but not necessary. As I said, I’m not interested in what point you’re trying to make with your rhetorical question. Please go back and re-read my question: > [@Bozuit](#): > > Non-rhetorical question: What definition of “natural” do you (anyone) use that includes homosexuality, but doesn’t include everything else? As you can see, I wasn’t asking for a handy list of dictionary definitions, and I wasn’t talking about heterosexuality. I was, essentially, asking those who would argue homosexuality is natural to describe the definition of “natural” they use to come to that conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/200 "2013-07-23T11:02:14Z")
> [@Okieshowedem](#): > > 29 And as Isayah said before: 2Unless Yahweh of Sabaoth; hosts, armies, had left us a seed, we would have become like Sodom, and we would have been made like Gomorrah. > > When the whole world has turned queer, will you believe then? > > Remember what the Scriptures say, we are fools not to believe ALL that the prophets have spoken. Luke 24:25 And all the scriptures were written by humans and declared the work of God by humans. That is another humans Idea, I believe Luke was a human. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031.md?page=11)