# Homosexuality is 'unnatural' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031 "2013-07-20T13:42:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/261 "2013-07-27T23:35:09Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > How about “natural” as opposed to “normal”? > > Homosexuality is _natural_ in that it occurs without artificial man-made intervention such as from culture or chemicals or technology. > > Then again homosexuality is not _normal_ in that the human reproductive system is designed by nature to function in a particular way for a particular reason and yet here we have scattered examples of radically different functioning. > > So while being born with a disability is not the same thing in terms of being severely undesirable and limiting, it could also be characterized as “natural but not normal” and one has to establish a different way of doing things in order to get closer to normal functioning. That doesn’t fly. Sex isn’t just about reproduction. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/262 "2013-07-28T21:34:51Z")
Having bright red hair is natural but not normal. Is the application of hair dye necessary for such handicapped people to function normally? ---
**Author:** ![dettvdir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@dettvdir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dettvdir)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/263 "2013-08-04T19:51:11Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, please. But lets say this is all true, it still leaves the questions I asked of you: > > Tell me, do you think that, generally, it is more natural, less natural, or equally naturally for a penis to be in a vagina as opposed to an anus? DetTVDir: Difficult to answer without knowing how the increments on the scale of “naturalness” are defined? It would be helpful too, to know above or below what degree signals that a human characteristic or behavior is – what? – sinister? A failing? Moral? Immoral? Is this a universal measure of “naturalness”? Other than sexuality is there a scale of “naturalness” for thousands of other expressed human characteristics like, say, intellect, athleticism, musical ability, ambidexterity, handedness, hair color, skin color and height ? If not, is sexuality uniquely subjected to the scrutiny of the “naturalness scale”? Why just sexuality, do you reckon? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/264 "2013-08-04T20:16:45Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Tell me, do you think that, generally, it is more natural, less natural, or equally naturally for a penis to be in a vagina as opposed to an anus? Tell me, do you think that, generally, it is more natural, less natural, or equally naturally for a penis to be in a vagina as opposed to a mouth or a tongue to be in a vagina? (And, since anal sex is prevalent among heterosexuals, how does this have any bearing on what is “natural”?) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/265 "2013-08-04T20:39:28Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > There’s \*\*natural \*\*and **artificial** , in terms of one is found in nature and one has to be constructed. For **artificial** sexuality, google “sybian” and “fleshlight.” ---
**Author:** ![dettvdir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@dettvdir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dettvdir)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/266 "2013-08-05T01:49:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > For **artificial** sexuality, google “sybian” and “fleshlight.” DetTVDir: Curious distinction. How, do you reckon, does the masturbatory behavior of non-human animals – particularly higher-order primates – for which there is copious evidence, stack up on the “naturalness” scale with human masturbation practices? For example are clever female orangutans, who have been frequently observed masturbating using sticks as dildos, behaving more or less naturally than a human male masturbating with, say, a “fleshlight”? Seems to me before the “it ain’t natural” business proceeds any further, some clever poster ought to define “natural” and enumerate the degrees of “naturalness” along this continuum that is supposed. What are the rules for lining up on either side of an increment? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/267 "2013-08-05T01:53:48Z")
> [@dettvdir](#): > > For example are clever female orangutans, who have been frequently observed masturbating using sticks as dildos, behaving more or less naturally than a human male masturbating with, say, a “fleshlight”? The distinction provided, thus far, was “one is found in nature and one has to be constructed.” Sticks are found in nature; fleshlights are constructed. ---
**Author:** ![dettvdir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@dettvdir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dettvdir)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/268 "2013-08-05T05:48:48Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The distinction provided, thus far, was “one is found in nature and one has to be constructed.” Sticks are found in nature; fleshlights are constructed. DetTVDir: Would the “naturalness” of the act be improved if the male human used a stick too (gently one would hope)? It seems to me the act itself is natural; the nature of a handy object by which the desired effect is accomplished doesn’t change the “naturalness” of it. Still and all, I wonder how homosexuality relates to this distinction and how, as it has been postulated, that it is “less natural” than heterosexuality? I don’t see that there’s a proper analogy here. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/269 "2013-08-05T13:48:09Z")
**dettvdir** : your user name shows up automatically above every post. It’s really not necessary to append it. Plus, it’s really annoying. > [@tomndebb](#): > > Sticks are found in nature; fleshlights are constructed. You could just as easily use some “natural fleshlight” like a clump of moss or something. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/270 "2013-08-05T23:52:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You could just as easily use some “natural fleshlight” like a clump of moss or something. I am not sure that moss would give someone the same experience as latex (or whatever is in a fleshlight). Beyond that, where do you think the discussion is heading at this point? I was not sure what point dettvdir was trying to make, but he asked a question to which there was an actual answer, so I responded to the question. His response to me made no sense to me, so I let it slide, and I really have no idea where you are going with your point. Having answered dettvdir’s question, I think I will back out of this odd twist of the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![dettvdir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@dettvdir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dettvdir)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/271 "2013-08-06T00:55:02Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am not sure that moss would give someone the same experience as latex (or whatever is in a fleshlight). > > Beyond that, where do you think the discussion is heading at this point? I was not sure what point dettvdir was trying to make, but he asked a question to which there was an actual answer, so I responded to the question. His response to me made no sense to me, so I let it slide, and I really have no idea where you are going with your point. > > Having answered dettvdir’s question, I think I will back out of this odd twist of the discussion. DetTVDir: The thread was diverted when I responded to “Magellan’s” question which implied there were degrees of “naturalness”. I asked if he (she?) would define “natural” and wondered if he (she?) would also enumerate the increments and thresholds on the “naturalness” scale. Would it take the “naturalness” measure of other human traits – like intellect, athleticism etc. – too? If not then why just sexuality’s themes, I inquired? The thread proceeded from there. Anyway in the biological sense, homosexuality is neither more nor less “natural” than heterosexuality. It’s merely expressed less frequently than heterosexuality. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/272 "2013-08-06T01:40:05Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > “natural” I know you are just playing Devil’s Advocate here, but if it’s “sane” it means that it’s “natural.” If you took a chainsaw to a woman’s clit, hetero as hell you might be, would that be sane? Or consensual? – if so I’d consider an asylum for all parties involved. And boatloads of psychotropic drugs. Fuck safe at at that point – you are five towns beyond it… ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/273 "2013-08-06T01:43:52Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > I know you are just playing Devil’s Advocate here, but if it’s “sane” it means that it’s “natural.” Ain’t nothin’ saner than buttsex. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/274 "2013-08-06T01:51:34Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Ain’t nothin’ saner than buttsex. I’ll take…eh…your word for it. My shoot is butt (sp is just fine) one way: out. But hey! Enjoy! ---
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/275 "2013-08-06T02:13:44Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > I’ll take…eh…your word for it. My shoot is butt (sp is just fine) one way: out. > > But hey! Enjoy! Well, except for chute anyway. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/276 "2013-08-06T02:37:42Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > Well, except for chute anyway. :smack: Both work: I’d shoot or I chute. Not like I’m going to reporting anytime soon. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![FrederickJones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/43a26b/32.png) [@FrederickJones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrederickJones)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/277 "2014-11-06T14:01:24Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > If you ask most people who are opposed to gay marriage, or simply homosexuality in general, why they oppose it they with inevitably say that homosexuality is somehow ‘not natural’. > > This has always baffled me as it seems patently false on several levels, which I have yet to hear an adequate refutation from those who claim it. > > Firstly, humans are part of nature and therefore anything we do is by definition, natural. Drawing an arbitrary line between us and the rest of Earth’s lifeforms based on our niche as the most intelligent is of itself no value in determining what is moral conduct. > > Secondly, even if you reject the first premise, homosexuality has been observed to occur in the animal kingdom, including our close primate cousins. Its conduct is therefore natural, it occurs in nature. > > Thirdly, if you reject the first two premises; why is something that is unnatural automatically bad? Flight, for example, is completely unnatural for humans, yet I don’t see those opposed to homosexuality campaigning to close all airports; special pleading if ever I saw it. Hemlock and anthrax, totally natural yet not as good in my opinion as, say, the automobile which doesn’t occur in nature. > > I’m normally quite good at playing devil’s advocate but for the life of me can’t figure out why opponents use an argument so obviously without worth. Is it simply lack of imagination that ‘anything not like me = unnatural’? Do you think it’s unnatural and can explain why, or help me understand why this argument is trotted out so often? This is in response to your debate about homo and hetero SEXUALITY. Every word you uttered in your thesis is related to why we must continue to fight the Atheistic agenda. WHY? Because few if any atheists are against pre, post, and extra marital sex OF ANY KIND. That is not only a threat to marriage, it’s a threat to humankind. Without marriage producing children we cease to exist. Now let’s not even debate about over population. How would you feel if half of that population had the diseases you mentioned? We are headed in that direction. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/278 "2014-11-06T14:03:04Z")
> [@FrederickJones](#): > > This is in response to your debate about homo and hetero SEXUALITY. > > Every word you uttered in your thesis is related to why we must continue to fight the Atheistic agenda. WHY? > > Because few if any atheists are against pre, post, and extra marital sex OF ANY KIND. > > That is not only a threat to marriage, it’s a threat to humankind. Without marriage producing children we cease to exist. > > Now let’s not even debate about over population. How would you feel if half of that population had the diseases you mentioned? > > We are headed in that direction. Why are you against post-marital sex? That seems like the best way to make new children. ---
**Author:** ![FrederickJones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/43a26b/32.png) [@FrederickJones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrederickJones)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/279 "2014-11-06T14:03:33Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Ain’t nothin’ saner than buttsex. (This is in response to your debate about homo and hetero SEXUALITY. Every word you uttered in your thesis is related to why we must continue to fight the Atheistic agenda. WHY? Because few if any atheists are against pre, post, and extra marital sex OF ANY KIND. That is not only a threat to marriage, it’s a threat to humankind. Without marriage producing children we cease to exist. Now let’s not even debate about over population. How would you feel if half of that population had the diseases you mentioned? We are headed in that direction.) :smack: :smack: :smack: Give yourself a smack while your at it. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031/280 "2014-11-06T14:04:59Z")
Dear lord, he’s copy-pasting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/homosexuality-is-unnatural/664031.md?page=15)